Fortuna Forum: General Plan Update

Thursday, December 01, 2005

General Plan Update

General Plan web site

The City of Fortuna is in the process of updating its general plan. This is potentially one of the most critical issues to come before the City in quite some time. Public input into this process is crucial. If ever there was a time to get involved and be heard, now is that time.

477 comments:

«Oldest ‹Older 1 – 200 of 477 Newer› Newest»

Anonymous said...: As someone who has traveled through fortune since 1970 i would say that i wish to see the city not grow into a average city. The future will be greater for those special cities where conservation is kept strong. Also its great to see old town Fortuna still alive. Please don't rebuild the old town but allow it to continue to function as an entity of the past. I pray that in 20 years from now Fortuna will look 90% the same and all additions will be in the area of parks and conservation areas. This will reward you with choices and clean air and clean water. Don't jump on the bandwagon of redeveolpment as many other cities around the USA are being recreated with such a rush that their future will really be in question. There is no need to hurry excpet in the area or beautification by saving that which you have and not by creating problems for the future.

PS: I have spent 3 1/2 years traveling (in a RV) the USA from december 2000 to march 2004 and i put in 72,000 miles traveling to small towns in forested areas all over the USA. Fortuna has kept its past while slowly going into the future and i hope it keeps going slow.; January 24, 2006 7:47 PM
Bernie H Herskovets said...: Having travel around this great Nation extensity as well as many parts of this world. I would prefer to see this small town grow and remain alive. A city where younger people can find a job buy a home and raise a family. Not a place that slowly decays, dries up and become a small dirty place along HWY 101. I would hate to see Fortuna become a place where only small minded people live. A place that tries to live in the past and refuses to take advantage of what the future can provide.

We don't need to become a Redding or Santa Rosa and I don't think we will. However we can become a vibrant community that provides options for growth and comfort. Let Fortuna grow and acquire some industry, a shopping district places that will welcome business and families alike. Control growth, don't stifle it. I prefer to live in the present and not in the past.; June 10, 2006 3:55 PM
mcmuffie said...: Bike lanes, sidewalks and parks are needed here in Fortuna. I have lived in the area for over 20 years watching the town grow steadily but Recently our town has begun to explode. To accomodate this population growth we need to consider our recreational facilities. Our parks have become sports oriented and not as conducive to public use as they could be. I propose acquiring the property near the River Lodge that is currently owned by Humboldt County and make this an area that would be accomodating to family gatherings, day use, and most needed, a dog park area. The dog area could include an area for owners to allow their dogs to swim in the river, perhaps a small agility course, and benches. Currently there is no river acces unless one climbs down the rocks and boulders of the dike. This would be a good area away from the sports fields and from Downtown; more appropriate for dogs. As I can remember, this is one of the few Riverfront properties in the city that has a remote possibility of being developed this way.
Biking in Fortuna is difficult. Bike lanes and sidewalks frequently begin and end with no consistency. While biking, I have had to battle over road space with vehicles while traveling down streets like So. Fortuna Blvd, one of our main streets! These areas most importantly should have bike lanes to accomodate those of us who would like to do commerce in Fortuna on our bicycles instead of our cars! (an ever more popular mindset as the price of gas continues to rise). Teaching our children to bike while sharing the road with cars remains extremely dangerous in this little town because of a lack of development of bike lanes. Fortuna boasts to be a friendly city. In the past few years it seems our hospitality has extended mostly to those passing through our fine city. I beleve our citizens deserve friendliness first and then the tourists. I would like to see our city leaders consider public use for their own constituents instead of being so "tourist " minded.
While you're at it, require Eel River Disposal to clean up their toxic waste dump site that exists in the pristine area on South 12th Street northwest of the Riverlodge. What a horrible eye sore!! Te amount of oils and petroleums leaching into the soil there would cause the EPA to impose fines that would bankrupt our town! Unbelieveable that this type of "dumping " can occur in our day and age.; June 23, 2006 5:09 PM
anonymous said...: As family that recently moved to Fortuna, we do not wish to see much growth. However, we have found it difficult to find work. We do hope that it can stay a happy medium for us and others who come to this unique area.; November 16, 2006 7:34 AM
Anonymous said...: Love those redwoods! And they are having a concert series starting Jan 13th. Travelthere soon. You will like it.; January 03, 2007 9:51 PM
John said...: I'm concerned with some of the expeditures I've seen over time. I think the city residents should be consulted on ALL major purchases. Examples; do we REALLY need so many expensive police cars?? Who authorized all these street stop lights like the new one by Walgreens. I don't want one there, does anyone agree?? They must be quite expensive also. We can't get the road island curbs painted white, with a few 5 gallon paint cans but can spend $20,000.00 for a stop light at Walgreens, which we didn't need, and everyone will hate. Pretty soon, it will take a half hour to get down town from Campton Heights. WHO IS MAKING THESE DECISIONS???????????????????
FROM NOW ON, let's VOTE on EVERYTHING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
JOHN; January 31, 2007 9:48 PM
Anonymous said...: Jeff says:

After seeing how the public voted in a LANDSLIDE for Option A (mixed use) in the last Public Workshop, you would think the City Council would follow the will of the people.

That does not seem to be the case as the City Council seems to be entranced by Katz's promises of a big-box to the PALCO site.

Why have a process? It seems to me that the Council is bought and paid for by a big outside developer. I say let them vote and then we can vote them out in the next election.; February 01, 2007 10:13 PM
Erin Wall said...: Clearly Mr. Katz Did Not Do His Homework

I decided after my first editorial, in the Eureka Reporter, that I should start attending the joint City Council and Planning Commission meetings regarding Fortuna’s General Plan Update. I attended Dr. Steven Hackett’s, standing room only presentation at the River Lodge. The data he gathered was used to generate the economic analysis of the three General Plan alternatives. Dr. Hackett’s analysis was unquestionably objective. I was disturbed at that meeting when the city manager announced that the city was going to give the out-of-town developer, Fred Katz, a platform as part of the General Plan Update process, at their next joint session on January 23, to pitch his big box development for the PALCO site. Our city manager stated, at the beginning of the January 23 meeting, that this was because his project is being considered concurrently with the General Plan Update.

To my knowledge Mr. Katz doesn’t have the correct zoning to lawfully conduct his project. Why should his planning application drive our General Plan Update process? Our city manager’s reasoning for this joint session shows clear bias. First, Dr. Hackett gave a presentation of his analysis regarding “all three alternatives.” Mr. Katz was given a clear platform to present a rebuttal to only one alternative, Alternative “B” South County Regional Shopping Center.

The planning commission and city council, by default, have now found themselves considering the merits of one alternative, Dr. Hackett’s Alternative “B” versus Mr. Katz’s Alternative “B.” There are no other joint sessions planned regarding the proposed mixed use of the site. The bias of the City holding Mr. Katz’s presentation is clear.

Unfortunately, the January 23 joint session was not as well attended by the public as Dr. Hackett’s. It is clear that Mr. Katz is out of touch with the economics of Humboldt County. Mr. Katz and his consultant stated that you can drive from McKinleyville to Fortuna in 30 minutes. The comparison of their proposed Fortuna trade area with Napa and Carson City sounded suspect. I was hoping Commission and Council questions might lead to explanations because public input was not permitted at this session. Councilman Strehl, was the only one who asked any critical questions. I was grateful to hear at the end of the presentation that Dr. Hackett was present and would be looking over the data and writing a response for the city.

As not only a concerned citizen of Fortuna but, a tenured math professor at CR, I really wanted to take a look at the data and analysis that had been presented. I visited City Hall later in the week and picked up a copy of the packet. It was very clear Mr. Katz and his consultant had not done their homework.

First, they have a finding that the “proposed Fortuna trade area is under represented and under serviced and would have few problems, if any, in attracting national retail.” When I looked at the supporting retail distribution list for the Fortuna trade area they listed only 7 large format retailers currently serving this area. They omitted Target, Kmart McKinleyville, Kmart Eureka, Michaels, Jo Ann Fabrics, Bed Bath and Beyond, Pier 1, and Petco, a percent error of 53%. All of the above retailers were included in the Napa and Carson City trade areas distribution lists. Clearly, this is a significant error that most likely would impact their findings. They also made classic, textbook manipulations of basic statistical measures of central tendency, cherry picking data elements in the process to make the Napa and Carson City trade areas appear comparable.

Fellow concerned Fortuna residents, it is time to contact your council members and remind them that they were voted in office to make informed decisions for all Fortuna citizens. An informed decision requires looking at the whole picture, not just what’s being lobbied for the betterment of one company and one developer.; February 02, 2007 6:15 PM
Bernie said...: Mr. Wall is absolutely right about one thing at least. The City Council needs to be concerned about their citizens and the services they can receive or can’t receive in our fair city of Fortuna. Because of how our society is structured those in the majority should have the loudest voice. However that’s not the reality in our community or our Nation. The radicals and the malcontents have the loudest voice as those of us easy going citizens sit back and listen to the dribble.

I’m so tired of having to drive to Eureka for every little item that I need because Fortuna is so limited in what it has to offer. Over and over I hear my friends and neighbors say, (the silent majority) “I wish we had some variety here.” I don’t want to hear, “Why don’t you move if you don’t like it here!” I do like it here, but my opinion is that there is nothing wrong with a little commerce. It’s one of the things that makes this country such a great place to live.

I don’t think its evil and I’m sure the sins of the big city won’t come down on us if we were to have a decent shopping zone. Something that generated a little income for the city, maybe a few jobs to keep our kids here in town. Tax dollars that are being spent everywhere but here in Fortuna could help save our hospital or expand our city services. Just because we live behind the Redwood curtain doesn’t mean we have to live like primitives.

How great would it be to have an outlet mall with a couple restaurants or a Home Depot and a Wall Mart to browse through Sunday after church? Is it so bad to be able to buy school supplies here instead of driving 20 miles to get them? If I wanted to buy affordable building supplies I have to drive two hours to Crescent City and visit Home Depot. Crescent City of all places! Home Depot built there because of people with no imagination, no foresight for the future of our community, and we shut the door on them. People that think the great Satan will descend upon us if the evil Big Box store sets up shop here are small minded. Where would this country be these past 100 years if a vibrant commerce and economy hadn’t flourished? Not the nation we are today.

Let Fortuna find its personality, let it become something that’s alive, don’t let it dry up and die an ugly lonely death.; February 04, 2007 2:16 PM
Erin Wall said...: Bernie-

It is actually Mrs. Wall. I am a 32 years old woman with a young family. I plan on enjoying Fortuna for a long time to come. I definitely do not want to see Fortuna “dry up and die an ugly lonely death.” You and I are more similar than you think. I do not like driving to Eureka every time I need to buy clothes for my family. I like everyone else want to see an increase retail presence in Fortuna. I am not anti-Big-Box or anti-growth. I did participate in most of the General Plan Workshops. Did you?

I found the workshops very moving. I not only got to brainstorm a bright future for Fortuna with fellow citizens but also was educated, by the very experienced and knowledgeable consultants hired by the city, on the economic reality behind the ‘Redwood curtain.’

What Mr. Katz is proposing is not economically realistic. You might say that it is his risk to take but, the reality is that he is not the only one taking a risk. There are many infrastructure costs (many of which are on-going expenses) that come with major commercial developments of this size. Many of which the developer does not cover. The city would be counting on the sales tax revenue to cover these costs. If the sales tax revenue does not pour in as predicted who is going to pick up the tab? You and I and the rest of Fortuna residents are going to be left paying the bill. The economic data suggests that this is the most likely outcome. Are you willing to take the risk? Are you and your friends willing to pay this price, among others that come when Big Boxes come into weak, fragile economies like we have in Fortuna, just to be able to cruise through Sunday after church? From my experience teaching many of the young and older people of this town at CR most of them cannot afford to take the risk.

A mixed use zoning for the old Palco mill site, as proposed in Alternatives A and C would still allow for commercial development among other types of economic growth. It would be a much more balanced approach to economic development and have the best shot at keeping Fortuna alive for generations to come.; February 04, 2007 5:34 PM
Bernie said...: Mrs. Wall, I apologize and I meant no offense as to your gender and you make some very valid points. But maybe because we’re separated by different generations I feel making a bold move in an attempt to secure a bright future makes more sense. Maybe because Humboldt isn’t where I’m originally from and I’ve seen other communities take a chance and it all works out. How many years have we already debated this same question? Waiting another year maybe two or even five years as we debate this over and over doesn’t make the situation any better, but it can make it a lot worse.

As this county moves further away from the two main industries that it relied on for the past 100 years, timber and fishing, tourism and retail commerce is the next frontier. The hospitality industry, which CR has made an effort to promote, will play a big part in all of this. People want to see the Redwoods and if there are other venues of entertainment after their long day hiking, where will they go, Ferndale, Eureka perhaps, but not Fortuna?

Am I willing to take chances? I’d say yes. What we can gain far out weighs the chance of our failure and our failure to act on what’s inevitable will only cost us and delay our future. You’re obviously an educated person, look back through history. What would have happened if man never took chances? History is littered with good choices and bad. Many decisions that shouldn’t have been made were, and still we’re here today, possibly even better for it. Yes, sometimes bad things happen, but guess what, great things can happen too and I’d rather believe that will be the outcome of our decisions.

I understand that my opinion isn’t going to change your mind and yours won’t change mine. But when I voted for change not to long ago I took a chance that we elected officials that would take a bold approach to saving this small, fragile city. I still have hope.; February 04, 2007 7:27 PM
Erin said...: Bernie, I would not have become the person I am today without taking risks. I have only lived in Humboldt County for about five years and I, like you, think we have diamond in the rough.

You did not say whether you participated in the General Plan Workshops. If you missed them, all the information is on the city's website. I encourage everyone to pick up a copy of Mr. Katz's data and analysis and take a look. Dr. Hackett's response will be available to the public soon. Then decided if Mr. Katz is the guy you trust to deliver Fortuna to its salvation.

All I want is for the city to be true to the General Plan Update process and consider all the information. I do not want them to do what this nation did recently. Start the information gathering phase with a desired outcome in mind and then only consider data and analysis that supports that position. Look where that got us. We did not decide to put a person on the moon one day and shoot someone into the sky the next. It took time and collaboration. We also put a monkey in orbit first. Let's take the time and do this right. If a bold (in my opinion careless) decision is made let's make it a deliberate, conscious one.; February 04, 2007 11:26 PM
Anonymous said...: Has anyone seen the vote totals from the last workshop? They are all for Option A. So why do I think the board will have no problem seeing Katz's way on this and vote for Option B. Who do they represent? Us or Katz?; February 06, 2007 9:04 AM
Anonymous said...: I agree with Ms. Wall in many respects. Fortuna's first priority should be to balance the growth with sustainable retail options -- but the bog boxes are a VERY risky move.

I attended most of the workshops related to the general plan update and it was pretty clear to me that some members of the council have bought into pie-in-the-sky visions of what to do with the PALCO site, even when the economist Stephen Hackett presented a very compelling case about the severe risks.

As I recall, his figures estimated that "Alternative B", aka the Katz Plan, was offering 6 times more retail than Fortuna could sustain over the next 20 or so years.

At the very next meeting Katz' own analyst basically ignored that aspect of the project and focused on trying to WOW the crowd by throwing out the names of large stores that MIGHT be interested in coming to Fortuna. It was very clear that Katz wanted to distract attendees from the very real economic problems associated with a big box mall in our small town.

I want to see Fortuna's small town charm preserved by complementing what we have with good, sustainable mixed use developments on the PALCO site. To me, Alternative A offers Fortuna a chance to move forward without threatening what we already have. Alternative B is a recipe for disaster that we just can't abide in a small town with a fragile economy.; February 06, 2007 2:27 PM
Bernie said...: This is a small community that thought big and it paid off. There are other stories like this all over the country.

Small-town USA goes 'micropolitan'
By Haya El Nasser, USA TODAY
ROANOKE RAPIDS, N.C. — For many travelers on Interstate 95, this old mill town is merely a pit stop halfway between New York and Florida. They fill their tanks, satisfy their craving for Carolina barbecue, crash for the night at the Sleep Inn and drive away from the fields of peanuts, cotton and tobacco. Avid fishermen sometimes stay an extra day to catch rockfish in the Roanoke River.
But for residents of two largely rural counties just south of the Virginia border, Roanoke Rapids is "the city" that anchors an area of 76,000 people. Wal-Mart and Lowe's just opened stores, helping replace jobs that vanished with the textile industry. A multiplex theater is on the way. Business is booming for Ruby Tuesday, Cracker Barrel and other chain restaurants. And in the ultimate sign that this isn't the backwoods anymore, Starbucks is coming.
Roanoke Rapids and hundreds of small cities like it were long written off as rural outposts where population was sparse and the economy sleepy. They were known simply as "non-metropolitan" areas.
Until now.
The government has created a new label for these communities, which increasingly fill the gaps on the map between major cities. The new term — Micropolitan Statistical Areas — recognizes that even small places far from metro areas are economic hubs that draw workers and shoppers from miles around.
For scholars and urban planners, the new category more accurately reflects changes across the country brought on by development, migration and the shift from farming and manufacturing to an economy dominated by service industries.
For marketing experts who help companies decide where to expand, the "micropolitans" represent potentially lucrative — and untapped — markets. More than 28 million people, or one in 10 Americans, live in such areas.
"Businesses used to look at these places and see Green Acres," says Robert Lang, director of the Metropolitan Institute at Virginia Tech. "Now they look at them and just see 'green.' "
Finding new markets
Branding these places recognizes what Wal-Mart has known for years: It doesn't take a big city to create an urban economy.
For the 565 small U.S. cities at the center of these "micros," the official identity lets them market themselves as economic entities that extend far beyond city limits.
"A small town can anchor a lot of regional growth around it," says Lang, who analyzed the new micros. "Now, they're on the map. They've got names."
Names attached to population clusters get the attention of retailers in search of new markets, says George Whalin, chief executive of Retail Management Consultants in San Marcos, Calif. "They're going to look closely at them."
Every year at the International Council of Shopping Centers convention, mayors and councilmen from across the country lobby developers to come to their towns. "This gives them another tool," Whalin says.
The growth of these communities into an economic force comes as rural America continues to shrink. Lang's research shows that more than half of the land area in the continental USA lies in either metropolitan or micropolitan areas. "Rural areas now for the first time make up the minority share," he says.
"The new classification adds a really important new dimension in understanding what really goes on in rural and small-town America," says John Cromartie, geographer and population specialist at the U.S. Department of Agriculture.
Some of Lang's findings are surprising:
•"Micro" doesn't always mean small. The largest micropolitan areas have more people than many metro areas. The Torrington, Conn., micropolitan area is the largest, with a population of 183,000 — bigger than the population of 103 metropolitan areas. Torrington is a micro, not a metro, because the central city has fewer than 50,000 people, the threshold for a city anchoring a metro area. Cities at the centers of micropolitan areas have at least 10,000 people but no more than 49,999.
•Sprawl is not just a big-city problem. Because small cities outside metropolitan areas have a lot of open land around them, their suburbs can be miles away. "Micros are more suburban because they're born sprawling," Lang says.
•Growth is occurring even in remote areas. Some of the fastest-growing micropolitan areas are near mountain resorts and national parks or areas that are warm in winter. Tourists and retirees looking to escape congestion and cold have helped create some micros.
"We're a micropolitan area?" asks a puzzled Art Elkins, city clerk and treasurer of Sheridan, Wyo., population 15,804. " 'Micro' I can understand. But we're very isolated. I would describe us as rural."
The pioneer town, which hosts an annual rodeo, is 15 miles from the Big Horn Mountains and Bighorn National Forest on the Montana border. Aside from methane gas development nearby, Sheridan was always largely agricultural.
But motels are opening. A Super Wal-Mart is luring shoppers from southern Montana. Retirees are building upscale homes on onetime farmland. And Sheridan's micropolitan area has more than 26,000 people.
Small-town advantages
Jack Schultz recently wrote Boomtown USA: The 7½ Keys to Big Success in Small Towns. As the head of Agracel, an industrial development company based in Effingham, Ill., Schultz recruits manufacturing and high-tech businesses to small towns he calls "agurbs."
He did it in his hometown of Effingham, a micropolitan area of more than 34,000 people. When the city lost major manufacturers, Schultz led an effort to build the 1.43-mile Effingham Railroad to create a connection with two major rail lines. As a result, Krispy Kreme came to town.
"We're too small to have a Krispy Kreme store, but we've got their national manufacturing facility," Schultz says. "People from large cities have the stereotype of small towns as being backward and not offering any advantages."
The advantages are plenty, he says: cheaper land, cheaper construction, lower labor rates and a small-town quality of life.
Small towns that have good highways and rail lines have huge advantages. It's no wonder that along the 1,907 miles of I-95 from the Canadian border in Maine to Miami, only five counties remain rural, too sparsely populated to qualify as a micro area. Two are in northern Maine, one in southern Virginia and two in South Carolina.
"Anybody who's been on the 1960s lonely ride down I-95 to Florida with their parents would recognize how much it's changed," Lang says. "Little cities have been built in the place of orange stands in Florida and peanut stands in the Carolinas. ... There was a time when most of I-95 was open, and now the openings are few and far between."
Rural and urban
The Census no longer lists Roanoke Rapids as just a small city of 17,000 people and less than 8 square miles. It's now a micropolitan area of more than 76,000 people and 1,360 square miles that includes Halifax County and rural Northampton County next door.
City Manager Rick Benton didn't know until recently that he lives in a micro area, but he didn't need the federal government to tell him that economic growth is reshaping Roanoke Rapids.

"We're in a rural area, but Roanoke Rapids is really an urban center," he says.
With an unemployment rate around 9%, Halifax County is one of North Carolina's most economically depressed counties. The county recently hired an economic development director to market the region's connection to I-95, two small power plants, expanses of land, lakefront properties for vacationers and retirees and quality of life.
"We're blessed with a lot of infrastructure, with water, a wastewater-treatment plant and acres and acres," says Ron Baker, in charge of economic development. "We've got lots of dirt."
Groundbreaking for an airport with a runway long enough to accommodate corporate jets and private planes is scheduled in June. Big-box retailers and hotels have come in. Lowe's created 800 jobs when it opened a distribution center in Northampton County. And expensive, custom-built homes are filling lots along Lake Gaston.
The old mills that kept Roanoke Rapids going for decades were at the center of the movement to unionize textile workers, made famous by Norma Rae, a movie about a local worker.
The mills are gone, and the 100-year-old houses that workers lived in are decrepit. Mayor Drewery Beale is using federal grants to refurbish the homes to encourage ownership among low-income families. "Whoever thought the sounds of looms and whistles at the mills would end?" says Beale, who grew up in the neighborhood. "We need to change our way of thinking."
On the other side of I-95, Johnny Draper, mayor of the neighboring town of Weldon, wants to revive a deserted downtown where six department stores once thrived. Only one variety store is left. The town of 1,400 wants to capitalize on its recreational and historical assets. The old train station is a public library. A broadcast group is in the old railroad warehouse. There is talk of turning a whole block into shops on the street level and loft apartments above.
"We need to push antiques and historic places," Draper says.
Joyce Ross is doing her share. A Roanoke Rapids native who had moved to Rocky Mount about 35 miles away, she recently bought two buildings in downtown Weldon. She's opening a home furnishings store, a bar and a restaurant.
"I'm 59 years old and didn't have a thing to do," Ross says.
Ross is targeting tourists and the upscale homeowners of lakefront homes, many who moved from Northern states. Her two sisters also have moved home.
"Somebody's finally going to recognize that communities of 50,000 or 60,000 have a lot to offer but don't have the problems of bigger cities," Draper says.
"We want our kids to have education and come back home to live. ... (This) may put us on the map."; February 09, 2007 10:57 PM
Erin said...: Bernie, that was an interesting article. However, Roanoke Rapids has different targets of opportunity for growth than Fortuna and Humboldt County in general. They are located off Interstate-95 that connects New York and Florida. Fortuna and Humboldt County are located off Highway 101. Highway 101 is a “highway to nowhere” north of Ukiah. People take Highway 101 up the coast to take a scenic route from the Bay Area up north to Portland or Seattle. Most people go north up Interstate 5. Now, if Fortuna was off of Interstate 5, I would agree with you. Also Mr. Schultz, the economist in the article, who recruits manufacturing and high tech businesses to small towns, says towns with good highways, rail lines and the ability to expand their airports have a huge advantage. We have two strikes against us. We all know, Highway 101 is not exactly the most reliable highway. There is talk of bringing back the railroad but, we are far from making that a reality at this point. I cannot comment about the ability to expand our airport.

Also, in California retail jobs do not pay a living wage. Now, in Roanoke Rapids, North Carolina where the median home value is $74,600 retail jobs pay a living wage. Retail jobs will not make our young people stay in Fortuna or Humboldt County. But, there are economic sectors that Fortuna and Humboldt County in general should be looking to attract and support. A report just being released, completed the end of January, by an economist out of Mountain View identified six economic sectors as targets of opportunity for economic revitalization plans for the North Coast. These sectors were all ones that in Humboldt, Del Norte, Mendocino, Siskiyou and Trinity counties have shown strength and growth over the last 10+ years and pay living wages. Retail is not one of those sectors. The report is very thorough. Hopefully the public will be hearing more about it soon.

I sincerely hope our city officials will take the time to consider this information. Fortuna is at a critical crossroad. City Council members, please demand to see all the information. Do not be swept away by the promise of sales tax dollars at the expensive of the citizens. This city, to my knowledge has always been fiscally responsible. The city is operating in the black. Many citizens in Fortuna are not. Do what is best for the economic health of the entire community. Remember what goes around comes around. You will get more sales tax dollars when people have more money to spend.; February 11, 2007 10:46 AM
Bernie said...: Erin, I don’t see it that way at all! Of course many people that travel north use Interstate 5, but that’s because we’re limited on what we have to offer here, besides beautiful Redwoods, and I don’t see Highway 101 as the road to nowhere. Build it and they will come! This article is a perfect example of what this town could be over time. We’ve lost the mills and fishing is a thing of the past, but we still have the Redwoods. People will visit here to see those trees, camp in our woods, stay in our hotels and eat in our quaint restaurants. Of course we’ll need some restaurants and shops for souvenirs or an Outlet Mall to satisfy their urge to spend money. That’s what millions of people do when they’re on vacation, spend money. Oh sure, winter can be a little troublesome here but it’s not like we have tornados or hurricanes or even an inch of snow. We’re actually lucky because our winters here are fairly mild and even though the height of the tourist season would obviously be our wonderful summers, we would have many more visitors than let’s say, Niagara Falls.

You talk about the poor in Fortuna, and I feel for anyone that’s in need, but those that have nothing will still have nothing if they don’t have jobs. None of us will have more money to spend if there aren’t jobs because what we do have will just fade away. I’d venture to say that even a minimum wage job is better than no job for someone wanting to work. Services for those in need will benefit from the tax dollars that tourism can bring. New services that spring from the new growth will benefit everyone, again there is a repeating theme here. I have more faith in what people can do if they have the opportunities than others I guess. You say that in California people working retail jobs can’t afford to live off those wages? This state like most states, has thousands upon thousands of people employed in the retail industry and they’re not all homeless. It’s true, there may be two or three people working in the household to make ends meet but there’s nothing wrong with that. That’s the way I live and I don’t see any problems with my wife and I both working.

Listen, I don’t expect this to happen over night. I wish it would, but it can’t. However, I don’t want to waste another two or three years debating if we should build more parks or a greenbelt and some affordable housing that no one will buy because there aren’t any new jobs.; February 11, 2007 9:45 PM
Erin said...: Bernie, all I meant by a "highway to nowhere" is that people do not just drive by us on their way to other places like they do in Roanoke Rapids, North Carolina. People drive here to get away from it all (go out to the middle of nowhere).

I guess I just have higher hopes for this city. I think we can have it all! We can increase our shopping opportunities (with retail development) that does not destroy our small town character and the quality of life we all enjoy while, attracting companies and businesses that are up-and-coming in Humboldt County that pay living-wages.; February 12, 2007 11:13 PM
Bernie said...: This post has been removed by the author.; February 13, 2007 7:35 PM
Bernie said...: Today I received a flyer in the mail. A flyer sent by an unnamed person or group trying to convince people that whoever they are they want real growth for our area. But they don’t and the flyer is a scare tactic. Whoever is behind this flyer is against any real improvement in our quality of life in Fortuna. The people behind this flyer want us to remain a small town because their small mined and have no imagination. Their only tool is to use pathetic threats against people who are confused about the chances of more opportunity, controlled sustained growth in a market that’s ripe for change and ready to expand. A large regional Mall with a couple big box stores would be perfect for our little corner of the county. It would put us on the map and give us the needed resources to revitalize our community.

Don’t fall for these tactics and don’t shy away from the opportunity to tell your city council what you want. Yes by all means show up for the meeting on Tuesday March 6th 6:00 p.m. at the River Lodge and be a positive person for change. Don’t let these anti-growth, anti-society groups stand in our way of having a chance for a higher quality of life.; February 26, 2007 8:26 PM
Anonymous said...: we need a place to buy "affordable" clothes, not another place to buy out-of-reach $ prescriptions; March 10, 2007 11:55 PM
Anonymous said...: As a 4th generation Fortunan, I am saddened that our city leaders and many residents are unable to visualize how unique and refreshing our town would be in the future if we were to resist the temptation of allowing in big box retail. It is a little ironic to me that although we try so hard to promote our city and bring in tourism dollars and brag about our great little clean town...we are so willing to just throw what we have away & become a cookie cutter city with redundant retail glut that will drive away all that makes our city great just so we can have a place to buy underwear. The service oriented, community minded, locally owned, individually unique, businesses that are the lifeblood of our city and which gives our community it's charm and supports our local charities as a percentage of sales FAR greater than any big box ever would, will have their existance threatened by huge non-local retailers who want to be everything to everybody under one roof.
There is a plaque that sits on main street Ferndale honoring the early individuals great vision and preservation efforts of their victorian main street way back when other towns were tearing down their old buildings and urbanizing/modernizing. These people siad: "wait a minute...look ahead 20, 50, 100, years...wouldn't it be neat if we could set ourselves apart from other communities and make something special by keeping what we have the way it is?"
I say, don't give in to the intense pressure from huge development companies......
Our town is growing a bit too fast for my liking....maybe that is inevitable & unavoidable.....but that doesn't mean we have to change our town and way of life to accomodate the wishes of people who have little or no roots here.......I have spoke with MANY people who are against big box retail in FORTUNA...unfortunatly, they are not as vocal as some of those who do not agree with or care about the potential repercussions of it....
I acknowledge Fortuna is a little short on certain types of retail offerings..but aren't we getting another strip mall already by the new Walgreens? It seems to me that the natural increase of places to shop is already happening. How much is enough? There is no doubt room for even more after this 20+ (?)business project is completed.....but by limiting the allowed square footage of incoming retail, we can keep an interesting diversity and level of service we just flat out aren;t going to get with an ugly unpersonal mega big box store. Wouldn't it be great to be an Eel River Valley youngster with an American dream to one day own a business in the town where you grew up without the dream having been shattered by non local developers and a family of Billioniares from Timbuktu who, on a daily basis, wire the $$ sucked out of our community out of our Town, County, & State??
Even if some locally businesses survive, and for the record, I do believe the strong well run ones will, (shopping at big box stores can be a real pain...), I think our town will severely suffer...our aesthetics, image, uniqueness, charm, future potential, etc.,etc. will be torn out by the roots and thrown away forever.; March 11, 2007 9:16 AM
Garrett Albright said...: Jobs, jobs, jobs, please. Businesses, businesses, businesses, please. So the city will become "ugly" and "an eyesore;" at least it will be an eyesore where money is both earned and spent within its city limits.

I'm currently unemployed and looking for work, and the vast majority of the things I'm trying for are not within Fortuna's city limits. There's just nothing going on here within the scale of job I'm looking for at this point in my life. Odds are I'll be moving out of the city within the next couple of months, and the people crying "small-town charm!" and "not another Santa Rosa!" are not doing anything that would make me regret the decision. I can't cover my head and fill my belly with "small-town charm"; March 11, 2007 3:49 PM
Anonymous said...: I moved here to get away from the thoughtless expansion of my hometown! I love Fortuna. It is changing and I don't know if it is for the best. Just a few years ago drivers would stumble all over themselves to give the right-of-way to a shopper in Safeway's parking lot. Not any more! It's risky business just to get your cart to the car! It doesn't have to be this way. A lot of people moving here are bringing their big city attitudes with them. They probably all want big box stores. Then go back to the city. To keep the small town atmosphere, we need to size new business accordingly. Look at the city of Vacaville. Downtown died when all the outlets went in---sad! "A" was the most popular choice for the General Plan, let's put of our city, citizens, and quality of life first. Mr. Katz can try somewhere else!; March 11, 2007 5:48 PM
Anonymous said...: To the fellow looking for work.....You speak of not being able to find the kind of job you're looking for. So...what is it you think bringing big boxes to town will do to change that? Is your goal to wear a blue vest greeting folks at the front door of a gigantic retail store that does everything it can to keep you under 40 hours per week to aviod paying you benefits? Good 'cause that will be one of the only job opportunities left in this town as they cannibalize many existing and future potential better paying jobs in our area. Retail is not the answer to jobs, industry is the word you're looking for. The proposed big box site was industry before..."that" provided better jobs...shouldn't it remain zoned for industry? Of course it should.; March 12, 2007 6:55 AM
Anonymous said...: Fortuna always sucked the redneck there have always brought in illegals to work the farms and they in turn bring in meth, heroin, cocaine, violence.

Board up Fortuna and make it a housing project for people that work in Eureka, bring industry to Eureka, kick out the mexicans and other illegals in Fortuna and set up part of it for a homeless area to solve the Eureka crime problems.

silly rednecks, towns are for normal people.; March 12, 2007 8:05 AM
Erin said...: Mr. Albright, I sympathize with your plight. I am one of the lucky ones who has a good job in Eureka and I commute from Fortuna. We need to do more in this city to attract local businesses that pay living wages to our community. There are such companies in Humboldt County looking to expand their operations. There was a terrific, in-depth analysis of Humboldt County's economy done recently and there are opportunities for real economic development in our community that go beyond retail. I do not understand why this city council refuses to look beyond the out-of-date, big box mall idea to build our local economy.

Such a development will only provide below poverty level wage jobs, most likely without benefits. It will also come at a steep price in terms of infrastructure cost along with a real threat to our small town feel. I wish our city leaders would stop being so small-minded and unimaginative and seriously look at how a true, modern day, mixed use district on the Mill site could provide more of everything this city needs: affordable housing, good paying jobs, along with more retail and entertainment choices and ultimately help build a strong, diverse economy in the city without destroying our beloved small town character. We do not need to choose between our small town character and real economic development. If the city truly cares about making decisions to benefit the entire community and not just the already deep pockets of a few people and businesses they need to look at all the information they have collected via the General Plan Update process and not just what little could be twisted to support a Regional Shopping Center/Big Box development and then make an informed decision. The city has had a joint workshop on a regional shopping center. I am still waiting for the city to have a joint workshop on how a modern day mixed use development could be brought into fruition and how this type of development has the potential to meet many if not most of the cities needs and desires. The city’s consultants with city staff have said, a true mixed use development is the way to go based on the data and community feedback yet, our city leaders continue to move in the opposite direction. There is something seriously wrong with that!; March 12, 2007 12:06 PM
Anonymous said...: I would hazard to guess the City Manager and Council members are not even reading these blogs. They don't care what the consultant's data has shown. Why should they care about your opinion. The only opinions I think they are paying attention to are short sighted "I want a Big Box because I want A Big Box." That's a data backed finding to the City Manager and Council.

I want a lot of things, but most of them, like this proposal, are unreasonable.

They are going to raise our taxes to support Mr. Katz's infrastruture. Future thanks to you Mr. City Manager for trashing our City and local business.; March 12, 2007 1:30 PM
Anonymous said...: I think that the "good ole boys", (you know who you are...most of you are on the city council and school boards...)control what happens with everything in Fortuna...If it benefits you and your deep pockets then it's full speed ahead. If putting in some REAL retail stores in Fortuna, where we don't have to go to Eureka, benefits the people and not the city council (et al), then it will never happen. Also, for those involved in land development, I could name a few, but I won't waste my time...build, build, build...so that way you can have more and more $$$ and be more pompous and arrogant than ever. By the way, what about those who struggle to pay their outrageous water bills every month...Too bad those who aren't as fortunate as others are never a concern to those who want to make more $$$$ by redeveloping. They aren't concerned about Fortuna and the average citizens, they are wondering how much they will benefit financially. I work very hard and make a very good living, but I am disappointed in the "officials" of Fortuna...You are not caring of your citizens. I believe that you all have your own pockets in mind..("The rich get richer?"; March 12, 2007 3:41 PM
Anonymous said...: Just a thought for those of you out there denigrating our City Council.

There was an election, just this past April, and the three who were elected (overwhelmingly, I might add) and those three just so happened to be vocally in favor of the type of development that Ms. Wall is adamantly against.

So, perhaps the will of the people is NOT being subverted, but rather being carried out.

Furthermore. the incumbent who was defeated was the candidate most widely seen as being one of the "anti" big box crowd. He finished second to last. He finished only ahead of someone running for the first time who has lived in Fortuna for less than three years.

Mr. Lewb; March 12, 2007 4:12 PM
Anonymous said...: Denigrating the City Council?

Ask them about their illegal variance at Strong's Creek Plaza. Fortuna Officials are lawless when it comes to land use. Fact is, these guys ran on a platform of a big box that is now, based on the data, infeasible.

They have a mandate to be responisble City leaders. Fortuna may be ready for a Big Box at a later time and place. If they were not going to listen to the consultatnts, then why waste the money to hire them. Yee Haw is not sound land use planning.; March 12, 2007 4:38 PM
Garrett Albright said...: So...what is it you think bringing big boxes to town will do to change that? Is your goal to wear a blue vest greeting folks at the front door of a gigantic retail store that does everything it can to keep you under 40 hours per week to aviod paying you benefits?

No, I don't want to work at a "big box" store. But it would be nice to have one available in Fortuna so that I wouldn't have to drive to Eureka just to be able to buy a pair of briefs or something.

Please notice I said nowhere in my original post that "big box" stores are the only solution to Fortuna's employment problems. In fact, if "retention" is an ultimate goal -- having enough smart, high-paying jobs in the area so that kids don't think they have to move away to get a decent career in life, as I will likely do -- big boxes aren't going to cut it. However, they do help alleviate Fortuna's problems with a severe lack of retail representation in many areas (books, inexpensive clothing, electronics beyond Radio Shack's meager selection, etc).

That's why I'm not too excited about Walgreen's. We already have Rite-Aid and Green's; Fortuna's already got drug stores. Now how about a Waldenbooks or a Target or a Circuit City?

Mr. Albright, I sympathize with your plight. I am one of the lucky ones who has a good job in Eureka and I commute from Fortuna.

I don't think that's lucky at all; I think it's unfortunate. My mother does this. She bought her new car five or six years ago, and the odometer will soon pass the 100,000 mile mark, if it hasn't already.

I'm not smart enough to try to give any for-sure answers here on what the council should do. But if the goal is developing jobs and retail -- and I can't possibly see how that wouldn't be a goal for the council or anyone else who lives in Fortuna -- I get a funny feeling that not giving businesses the opportunity to, well, do business in the city is not the answer.; March 12, 2007 6:01 PM
Anonymous said...: "Ask them about their illegal variance at Strong's Creek Plaza"

That is so lame. Tell me exactly what is illegal about the variance. The council has the authority to grant the variance.

Equating the sign issue to big box development is ridiculous, they are two dissimilar issues.

Face it. The people voted in April. They spoke LOUD and CLEAR.

Why dont you Friends of Fortuna COWARDS sign your names to the muckraking mailers you send out. Better yet, why dont you run some candidates on your
"Lets keep Fortuna the way it is now"
platform.

You'd probably get two, maybe three votes.

You elitist snobs only want the big box plan to be "infeasible."

Talk about selective use of data.

But, you obviously know better than the rest of us uneducated folk, cause you went to a couple of workshops and meetings. NOT.; March 12, 2007 8:36 PM
Anonymous said...: To answer your question about was so illegal about the "variance." To clarify both of you, there actually was no variance issued by the City.

First take a look a the definition of sign under Fortuna Municipal Code. What the City Council did was authorize an interpretation of what a sign is defined as. To get a bigger sign, the City interpreted the definition of "sign" for one property owner thus affording them the grant of special privelege (larger sign) not afforded to other commercial properties within Fortuna. They did this actually without changing the code. So, actually the City violated the 14th ammendment of the US Constitution "the equal protection clause." The Stongs Creek Plaza sign could easily be taken down via a lawsuit based on a bad unconstitutional decision made by our "LOUD and CLEAR" candidates. What is elitist about our constitution?

The "elitist snobs" are the folks actually reading the data and analysis which is posted on the City's web site in plain English. What is so elitist about being able to read? I thought this forum was supposed to be respectful? I am not associated with any groups, so don't go making any accusations about me or that weird mailer we all got.; March 12, 2007 9:45 PM
Anonymous said...: omg, 914, take it to court then. The city council made an intrepretation and it fit withi the boundries of their decision making rights. The "illegal variance" is a direct quote from one of the posts above mine.

The elitist snobs are the SJ's of the world who think they know better than those of us who want
shopping, who VOTED for the candidates who were in favor of retail development.

Again, if you think you have such a groundswell of support, run in the next election. Its only two years away.; March 12, 2007 9:52 PM
Erin Wall said...: I voted in the last election and while I will admit I was not as informed as I should have been I still did not think my votes were for "Big Box at all cost." I did vote for candidates that had stated that they were going to "look into" bringing Big Box to Fortuna. I wanted council members who were open to considering all the opportunities for economic development and were not anti-growth. I voted for Mr. Glaser because it meant a lot to me that he came by my door. I thought, here is someone who will listen to the people and really cares about the community (at this point, I am more than a little disappointed by his comments). He did have a flyer for me that mentioned he was for "looking into" bringing Big Box to Fortuna. Had he said, Big Box at all cost I know I would have never voted for him. I voted for Mr. Whitchurch because I have done business with him before and being both an accountant and a successful businessman I thought he would make informed decisions about Fortuna's future. Mr. Whitchurch has been relatively quiet and I still have faith that he will not turn his back on the numbers.

I am not "cooking up" numbers or only looking at the numbers I want to. If you went out on the city's website and read the economic analysis presented to the city by their own consultants or had participated in the workshops you would know that, and I would bet that you would be concerned as well.

Not everyone who has concerns about the direction the city is headed with the General Plan Update is anti-Big Box or anti-growth. I am all for responsible growth and real economic development. Again, I do not think we need to choose between our small town character and economic development which includes more shopping opportunities.; March 13, 2007 4:53 AM
Anonymous said...: What everybody keeps forgetting is that Fortuna can (and should) be anti big box without being anti-growth.
We simply need to set a maximum square footage requirement for retail stores which will not restrict new needed retail, but keep out the community crushing bohemoth Sprawl-Marts who are ONLY interested in building gigantic "we-don't-care-if-your-town-already-has-this-stuff-we-sell-it-all-so-may-everbody-else-just-close-up-and-go-away-we're-here-now-and-we're-powerful" type stores....
This would keep help to keep a wider selection of shopping choices and help to retain the community atmosphere...
So I don't disagree that we should try to attract more retail (and industry for that matter), let's just keep big box stores out for the sake of our town.; March 13, 2007 8:28 AM
Anonymous said...: Ms. Wall, Dean Glaser ran on big box expansion. He ran (and won) four years ago, talking about it, and he ran and won again recently with the Big Box being the focal point of his campaign. Oh, yes, Ms. Wall, he did more that say he'd be "looking into it", he was front and center with his pro big box stance.

This quote from another poster left me quite literally scratching the few remaining hairs on my head:

"... keep out the community crushing bohemoth Sprawl-Marts who are ONLY interested in building gigantic "we-don't-care-if-your-town-already-has-this-stuff-we-sell-it-all-so-may-everbody-else-just-close-up-and-go-away-we're-here-now-and-we're-powerful" type stores...." "

I think it needs to be rephrased:

"We need to welcome a nice big jim dandy SuperWalmart, who will help revitalize the retail shopping in the city, because they-sell-stuff-that-we-currently-have-to-go-to-Eureka-for-now-because-nobody-in-Fortuna-sells-it."

As far as this priceless gem of a quote:

"This would keep help to keep a wider selection of shopping choices and help to retain the community atmosphere..."

Can you tell me where exactly this wide selection of shopping choices exists in Fortuna??????????????????????????????????PLEASE??? Is somebody keeping our vast array of shopping choices a secret from me?

As far as "retaining our community atmosphere", my question is WHAT atmosphere? Do you mean the quaint downtown section where there are two bars, two or three small businesses, and two or three closed up shops right in a row?

Wow, it seems to me that a downtown could actually be revitalized as people stop and shop at the big box and then go grab a bite to eat, and perhaps shop (as studies HAVE shown folks tend to do) at other retail venues in the city where the big box resides.; March 13, 2007 7:21 PM
Anonymous said...: Ok, Einstein. Let's see.. A super Walmart would probably cause lay-offs (if not close) Fortuna Feed and Garden Center, Ace Hardware, Ray's Food Place, Strehl's Shoes, The gun and chainsaw store next to Hot Brew, Forbusco, Beverage Plus, Grundmans in Rio Dell, Bartow's, Sport and Cycle, The Quick Lube shop, Safeway, the tire shops, the scapbooking shop, the yarn shop.....The list goes on and on.......

You people slay me. The people that work at these places, for the most part, are Fotuna residents. You Big box supporters are so short sighted. You are supporting the failure of these business that support local families and our economy, so you can go by cheap-crap under one roof. You are turning your back on your fellow Fortunans. I don't want to hear that free market crap that you people love to spout. Walmart is not about free market. They are about aggressively being the only place to shop in town. Walmarts destroy small communities. They also have a proven trakc record of being lousy employers.

They may enhance shopping opportunities of larger communities, but the evidence is clear, Fortuna residents are going to suffer as a result of your non-loyality to your fellow citizens. Our quality of life is just fine. I have not heard of an underware or Wrangler jean crisis in our town. Most of the stuff in my garage was purchesed in Fortuna and yes, some of it in Eureka. Big Deal. The Tax revune leakage from Fortuna is also a myth. Read the economist's report!

People I have heard from other commuities in Humboldt County are actually releived that Fortuna is the only City looking at bringing a Walmart in. Comments range from "better them than us, and Fortuna and Walmart is a logical Redneck relationship." Our image of an second class, backwards community is only going to be enhanced by having a Walmart. I only hope our property values don't suffer too!; March 14, 2007 10:10 AM
Anonymous said...: They won't read the reports because reading the data means you are an elitist snob!; March 14, 2007 11:09 AM
Anonymous said...: The Fortuna General Plan Update is not about Walmart. Period.

Businesses in Fortuna that provide great customer service and good products for fair prices will not be harmed by new retail.

Fortuna Feed is owned by City Councilman Pat Whitchurch and his family and Mr. Whitchurch has repeatedly said that he believes that new retail will help, not hinder his business.

Ace Hardware is a nice, new and clean store that could also benefit from the added traffic brought in by more retail. The Kmart in Mckinleyville didn't harm the Ace there.

Rays Food Place is a chain and not locally owned. They have great customer service and a loyal customers.

Safeway is a chain and happens to be the highest priced Safeway in California so if they go...good riddance.

Strehl's shoe store caters to a niche in Fortuna. Surely Mr. Strehl realizes that the mainstream shopper does not buy their shoes in his store. His loyal customers are looking for a different product than is offered in a discount shoe store. Strehl's also has a podiatric specialist (Mrs. Strehl) who provides a much needed service. I have heard Mr. Strehl say that events like Autorama and Rodeo have brought people from other areas who have never heard of his store or products. This is what will happen if we have newer retail come to town. Strehl's reputation and specialty services will draw people in, and his business will thrive.

That Saw place is called Wildwood, and, again, they are a niche store. There is no way they would be hurt by major retail. For example, Long's drug stores have downsized their hunting/sporting good sections. Most major retailers do not have the selection or knowledge to attract the hardcore enthusiast. They shop at Wildwood and will continue to do so.

Forbusco Lumber caters mostly to professional builders. They have excellent customer service and support and there is no way all of the builders would switch and go to a Home Depot. Home Depot's cater to the homeowner, not major builders. Also, no one was worried about the impending lumber/retail store (coming to the Strong's creek Plaza) knocking out Forbusco. They are the real threat.

Beverage Plus gets loads of business from the High School. That won't change. They sell loads of alcohol, that won't change either.

Grundman's in Rio Dell is in Rio Dell. They are also a niche store.

Bartow's jewelers provides services not provided by retail chains.

Sport and Cycle....hate to break it to you but they make most of their living selling uniforms to out of the area teams.

Quick Lube. They provide good service for a fair price. I have often see Lube shops right across the street from retail chains who perform lubes. Most people consistently take their cars to the same place, so, again, if a fair and decent priced service is being offered, they will keep their customer base.

The tire shops will also be fine. They have a similar following like the lube shops.

Scrapbooking store. Target has a terrible scrapbooking section. So does WalMart. If you are really into scrapbooking, you don't look to a major retail chain. You go to the specialty store.

Yarn Shop. Niche store will similar customers as scrapbooking.

I could go on and on.

The bottom line is this...

There is nothing wrong with competition.

We do not have the proper amount of retail for a town our size.

It is not responsible city planning to overdevelop residentially without providing basic shopping and services to your citizens. It is not responsible to make your residents have to drive 20 miles to another town to buy basic things like clothing.

Stop making this whole need for retail about fear mongering and Walmart.

Signed,
Ivana Choice; March 14, 2007 1:48 PM
Anonymous said...: Fortuna is the most irresponsible local government when it comees to land use planning. The Fortuna General Plan has everything to do the Walmart. The City is only updating the General Plan to facilitate Mr. Katz's project. Fortuna's anything goes policies will probably start-up again with this General Plan. Fortuna couldn't follow its first General Plan and zoning codes; don't expect them to follow this updated plan. Fortuna is more than ripe for a land use lawsuit. Hmmm.. I wonder what the Grand Jury would say about conflicts of interest on the Fortuna City Council.

P.S. Ivana, Fortuna has plenty of commercial zoning to support all the housing in Town. Bottom line this plan update would result in 600% of the needed retail and commercial zoning for Fortuna. Do the math somebody is going to suffer.; March 14, 2007 3:10 PM
Garrett Albright said...: Ok, Einstein. Let's see.. A super Walmart would probably cause lay-offs (if not close) [in various businesses]...

I don't want to hear that free market crap that you people love to spout.

Well, tough. As much as it may "slay" you, the capitalist system is how America services its citizens. If Wal-Mart were to come to Fortuna, other retailers may have to adapt to survive, and some may not survive at all. The producers that can offer the most value will earn the most profits; such is capitalism. And, as "Ivana" mentions above, many of these retailers, such as Strehl's, will probably still survive just fine because they already service a certain niche which probably wouldn't be covered too well by "big box" stores, which tend to be jacks of all trades but masters of none.

My stepfather, Kevin Johnson, is the manager of Beverage Plus Foods. Of course all new competitors (and old ones) are a concern, but I don't think he'd sweat a Wal-Mart or Target coming to town; those stores wouldn't have the large wine and liquor variety that Bev Plus has, nor the ethnic foods -- Hispanic foods are big business. Also, I may be incorrect, but I don't think Wal-Mart and Target carry cigarettes or do Lotto tickets, which are also quite profitable. Bev Plus would survive.

But you know what? Beverage Plus is not a locally-owned business! Kevin's just the manager; the owner lives in Lake County! It's just like Wal-Mart; the box-boys, stockers, checkers, managers, bean-counters, and distributors all live in town, but the owner doesn't! Oh, now you can never shop there again!; March 14, 2007 3:15 PM
Anonymous said...: rkThanks for clarifing that you really don't give a crap if your friends and neighbors lose their jobs. Should we should give a crap when Palco lays of the rest of their employees? NAH! People should just adapt according to you. Ok, I'll stop feeling sorry for my dad who was laid off. Thanks for the clarification.; March 14, 2007 3:36 PM
Anonymous said...: What in the world does PALCO workers being laid off have to do with this? Answer: NADA.

Nice Strawman argument though.

Wanna Box; March 14, 2007 3:41 PM
Anonymous said...: "Fortuna is more than ripe for a land use lawsuit. Hmmm.. I wonder what the Grand Jury would say about conflicts of interest on the Fortuna City Council. "

You know, it is soooo easy to make these kind of statements and allege all kinds of nefarious activities going on, but to answer your question, I don't think the Grand Jury would say anything about any current councilmembers having conflicts of interest.

Again, hysterical shriekings alleging misconduct does not make it so. Why dont you go ahead and make a complaint to the Grand Jury if you feel so strongly.

Oh, I know, you're missing a couple of things...They're known as "facts"...you know, things that actully back up your inappropriate
accusations.

And this doozy:

"Fortuna is the most irresponsible local government when it comees to land use planning"

Try substantating with some facts rather than rubbish like this.

Just because the city is putting in a project YOU dont like, doesnt make it irresponsible.

Wanna Box; March 14, 2007 3:53 PM
Anonymous said...: Ha! I know more than hysterical shriekings regarding what the good ole boys have been up to beside this botched attemnpt at looking "civic" by updating the General Plan. Stay tuned!; March 14, 2007 4:26 PM
Anonymous said...: There is no other commerically zoned property in Fortuna that is as well situated for success as the Mill site.

Yes, there have been some poor land use decisions made in the past by prior councils/planning commissions/city planners. Ironically, some of those poor decisions were made by people who are now "Keep Fortuna the same" and Fortuna First/Friends of Fortuna followers!

The General Plan Update was in the works long before the Katz project was introduced. You would know this if you had attended City Council meetings over the years. Please, we are required to update our Plan periodically. In the past it has been done "in house" and without much public input. I am glad that it is being done now and with the proper public comment, aren't you?

The General Plan has a 25 year scope. That is a long time, and we need to plan accordingly. It is not going to happen overnight, so calm down.

Retail and commercial is what brings money to our city.

Here is some math for YOU to do:
Retail=tax dollars
Retail=parks
Retail=senior center
Retail=walking trails
Retail=fiscally sound city

It doesn't have to be a Walmart.

We need something.

Ivana Choice; March 14, 2007 4:32 PM
Anonymous said...: "Ha! I know more than hysterical shriekings regarding what the good ole boys have been up to beside this botched attemnpt at looking "civic" by updating the General Plan. Stay tuned"

Oh. Please.

Stay tuned? For what? Another Mailer?????

"Botched"??? Do tell. Again, some facts, please.

If you truly "had" something, you'd be ALL OVER IT.

Wanna Box; March 14, 2007 4:43 PM
Mater said...: Boy somebody needs to lay off the caffine!; March 14, 2007 4:54 PM
Anonymous said...: Actually, Mater, some of us are just sick and tired of people sending out anonymous mailers trying to whip people into a frenzy.

We're also tired of people making baseless allegations about council members that were ushered in overwhelmingly. If I am over caffinated, it beats the sour odor of sour grapes emanating from the anti crowd.; March 14, 2007 5:31 PM
Anonymous said...: "You people slay me. The people that work at these places, for the most part, are Fotuna residents."

Gee, Nabokov, Where do you think the majority of workers that come work at a new retail big box will come from? Mars?

Do you think any of the places you mentioned, with the exception of Safeway pay great wages?

"You Big box supporters are so short sighted."

Yep, we just want to go be able to not spend three fifty a gallon to drive into Eureka, to buy things that we currently canNOT buy in Fortuna.

" You are supporting the failure of these business that support local families and our economy, so you can go by cheap-crap under one roof. "

And people here were wondering why some would lable you anti's "elitist".

Are you inferring that a big box will simply sell "cheap crap" that the local businesses are currently selling?

"Cheap crap" like underwear, which I currently buy for my family at Kmart? Well, I confess, I do go for the inexpensive stuff, as I dont go for silk undies for daily wear.

"You are turning your back on your fellow Fortunans."

Oh puleeeeez. Am I turning my back on my fellow Fortunans when I am shoping at Costco, Target, Kmart and Winco? Are the many friends I run into at EACH place EVERY time I go shopping at these exotic Eureka Locales also "turning their backs" on their fellow Fortunans?

"I don't want to hear that free market crap that you people love to spout."

WOW...perhaps we should let you run the local economy...I have to break one thing gently to you though; Uncle Fess's Horse farm is going through some tough times these days.

Seems they have these new fangled contraptions called horseless carriages, or some such nonsense. Maybe we can ban those puppies so Uncle Fess keep feedin the family...or perhaps Uncle Fess could change with the times.; March 14, 2007 9:38 PM
Anonymous said...: My grandparents came to Hydesville in the 1860's as youngsters. I have lived here all my life (73 years) so I feel that I have some history of Fortuna and Humboldt County. Those who continue to talk about wanting to keep the 'small town' atmosphere of Fortuna fail to realize it no longer exists. Look around...how many homes have been, and are continuing to be built. That means many more people. It wasn't too long ago that I could go into the grocery store and know many of the people there. Not anymore. I taught school here for many years and before I retired I no longer knew the families as I had for many previous years. Whether we like it or not, Fortuna is not the town I knew and will not be again. However, since we have people, we have to provide the services for them, and that means retail shopping. I did attend many of the General Plan meetings and I heard people wanting a place to shop. They wanted many other things as well. I am for a Home Depot and a Wall Mart. I will still patronize some of the businesses here because they give excellent service but I also know that there are people here who need some choices of where they can shop. We need a senior center and I would love to have pool. Maybe the taxes a Wall mart or Home Depot would bring to Fortuna could help us with some of these needs and consequently benefit its citizenry.; March 14, 2007 9:46 PM
Anonymous said...: Thank you to the person who wrote the comment above.

I am sure that it has been hard for you to see Fortuna change over the years and it is admirable that you have accepted the changes without bitterness.; March 14, 2007 10:08 PM
Anonymous said...: Your so called free market reign will be at the expense of our tax dollars fitting the bill for the infrastructure at the PALCO site. Corporate wellfare for Fred Katz.

Of course the people that get laid off from what is left of our local shops and chainstores can be Walmart employees, Nabokov! 39 hours a week and no medical benefits.

Glad to see Fortuna courting such high quality economic development.

10,500 people live in Fortuna. Projections have 6,000 people moving here within the next 25 years! 240 people a year! Wow, what a growth rate. Fortuna should start planning for another high school!

A mixed use of the PALCO site is economically the most feasible use of land, according to the findings from the City's consultants. Since you know so much about big boxes, why don't the other communities in Humboldt County (including Eureka)want Walmart in their towns? Look for yourself at what Walmart did to Willows. Why not ask our City leaders to look into a mixed use development. Folks like Whitchurch are not going to go unscathed. Infact I'll give him (Fortuna Feed and Garden Center) less than a year of business after Walmart is up and running. There are other national chain choice besides Walmart that Fortuna could be looking at to meet our retail needs here. Don't characterize people who care about this town as elitist, or assume we are part of some mailer group.; March 14, 2007 10:51 PM
Anonymous said...: Who said the city of Fortuna is looking at Wal-mart? Our city is not in the development business. We are in the process of updating our general plan because it is mandated by the state of California...Not Fred Katz!

Our city leaders are in favor of a "mixed use" zoning for the Palco site to keep our options open. A very smart move and very responsible city planning.

The property owner will ultimately decide what is proposed, and the free market will ultimately decide what is feasible. This is America.

Admittedly, Dr. Hackett did the best he could with the numbers he had to work with. However, there is a lot more money in this area than meets the books. Our neighboring casino is netting over a million $ per month. Ask Dr. Hackett where that is coming from!

Some people are worried about getting too much retail. Developers do market studies. Retailers do market studies.
They are not in the business to lose money. If a project doesn't pencil-out it won't move forward. This is what these people do for a living folks! God knows they aren't writing blogs at 12:30 am.

It is quite likely that smaller scale retail development would do more damage to our existing retail business community than large scale development. Larger projects, like a big box, WILL draw more shoppers to Fortuna while smaller versions will only slice our local pie thinner with very little draw from outside of our area.

Bottom line.
Our general plan update is not about choosing retailers for the Palco site!; March 15, 2007 12:29 AM
Anonymous said...: Bringing a regional shopping center to Fortuna would be wonderful for this city. I look at it this way; The sales tax revenue generated from a regional shopping center I have heard would be in excess of $1 million per year to the city. Most of the customers for this shopping center would be coming from Eureka/ Arcata and Mckinleyville. You really have to look at this as a REGIONAL center and not just a shopping center that Fortunans only would shop at. With all of the people coming to shop here, alot of them will explore our city and and will surely stop and buy items in the downtown area.

Let's think about what the additional income to the city could do for the city. First, the city would be able to bring city employee pay rates up as they lag far behind the average for other cities in California. A recent sudy showed the our police officers are making 43% less than a officer in the southern part of the state.

The additional money could pay for downtown beautificition such as tree lined Main St., better and brighter lighting and making the area more friendly to walking shoppers. They could landscape the medians on Fortuna Blvd.

A regional shopping center would indeed benefit all residents of Fortuna. Think about it.; March 15, 2007 10:25 AM
Anonymous said...: I live in Eureka and I would come down to shop at Walmart; March 15, 2007 12:54 PM
Anonymous said...: "Your so called free market reign will be at the expense of our tax dollars fitting the bill for the infrastructure at the PALCO site. Corporate wellfare for Fred Katz"

WrongoROO, my friend. Infrastructure is paid for by the developer. The Anti's going around saying that the the developer is getting 5-10 million dollars from the city are simply incorrect.

As in wrong.; March 15, 2007 1:36 PM
Bernie said...: Please take heart my fellow “pro-growth, pro-business” friends. These activists will protest everything that has anything to do with choice. Have you looked up the word “activist” lately? The word "activism" is often used synonymously with protest or dissent, but activism can stem from any number of political orientations and take a wide range of forms, from writing letters to newspapers or politicians, political campaigning, economic activism (such as boycotts or preferentially patronizing preferred businesses), rallies and street marches, strikes, or even guerrilla tactics. Up in this neck of the woods people have hugged trees and violated private property, to name a few unsavory tactics. Now these same people write letters of propaganda to scare people. Have you ever noticed that a small minority of the people do most of the talking while the vast majority of us sit back and let them get away with almost anything? They’ve taken prayer out of the schools. That’s paid some dividens, hasn’t it? We can’t say the pledge of allegiance to our flag in school. Another great move. The list just goes on and on. I think the majority of this town want change, and that change included an expanded business district, which includes the so called Big Box. Otherwise the people wouldn’t have voted into office who they did in the last election. It’s the way America works. The minority complain the loudest, but when the votes are tallied the majority has spoken. The City Council has it’s mandate and should move forward with the will of the people and stop entertaining the small group of nasayers.
Please bring us choice and a way to bring life back into our little community. I voted yes for pro-growth and pro-business, as did the majority of others. Let it happen.; March 15, 2007 7:18 PM
Anonymous said...: Bernie,

Well said, sir. Well said.

Wanna Box; March 15, 2007 9:17 PM
Anonymous said...: Right on, Bernie!!!!; March 15, 2007 9:20 PM
Anonymous said...: Bernie,
Will you consider running for city council?; March 15, 2007 9:23 PM
Anonymous said...: "Folks like Whitchurch are not going to go unscathed. Infact I'll give him (Fortuna Feed and Garden Center) less than a year of business after Walmart is up and running."

Funny that you bring up Mr.Whitchurch and the business he and his family run, especially since he has spoken up in favor of retail development, the kind that you oppose. Perhaps he isn't afraid of some competition.

Some competition that will bring others from outlying areas that will also see his store from the freeway.

Perhaps some of the folks who see the store on their way to or from the new development will stop and shop at Mr.Whitchurch's store.

"Of course the people that get laid off from what is left of our local shops and chainstores can be Walmart employees, Nabokov! 39 hours a week and no medical benefits"

Again, pray tell, tell me which stores other than safeway offer benefits?

And I would venture a guess that the "shops" you speak of are for the most part paying minimum wage, with NO benefits.

I look forward to a real response, one not one gleaned from the anti walmart handbooks given out by the unions and other anti groups.; March 15, 2007 9:25 PM
Garrett Albright said...: I don't see how a general store like Wal-Mart would necessarily destroy any given store that specializes in a certain "vertical" like Fortuna Feed and Garden. I know that if I wanted to buy some oats for horses or something, Wal-Mart wouldn't be my first choice.

Fortuna should start planning for another high school!

Why would that preclude commercial development? We could have both, you know; in fact, the tax revenue from the stores would make planning and building a new school a much more realistic proposition. Just because people can actually do serious shopping in Fortuna doesn't mean we can't still provide social services like schools.; March 15, 2007 11:40 PM
Anonymous said...: qiBernie, what is most disturbing about your diatribe is that you and other are confirming what is most prevelent in our neck of the woods (Fortuna, Scotia Rio Dell...). Thanks to the tree huggers and activists our community is divided. You, and folks that think like you ASSUME that if we are for local business and anti walmart we are some hippies or anti american. I predictd that this issue would become us verses them. Damn liberal anti-growther!! You need to open your eyes give us some credit for actually reading the data and having a fact based opinion. Ok, you seem to have US figured out. Would it surprise you to know that my family all the way back to the revolutiuonary war are cobat veterans? I lost my father in Vietnam in 1970. I missed my OPPORTUNITY to serve in the first Gulf War by being redeployed elseware. I don't what to hear your absolute crap about anti-wal mart and pledge to the flat garbage give me a huge break. This is a land use issue.; March 16, 2007 8:27 AM
Anonymous said...: 8:27, Whats most disturbing to me about YOUR diatribe, is that it doesn't make a lick of sense.

Aside from the fact you arent a tree hugger, which you made abundantly clear, I simply dont understand what you're trying to say.

And I don't think that folks here believe that everyone who opposes the retail development is a tree-hugging hippee.

You can have a pile of reasons opposing the development, but the bottom line is that you are one of a small but vocal minority.

Minority as in, you've lost every step of the way, such as in the last election.

Minority as in MORE people want this.; March 16, 2007 9:33 AM
Anonymous said...: The false assumption you seem to be clinging on to is that your candidates ran on a big box platform, they got voted in, so therefore, big box should be put in absent of any studies.

Last I read, General Plan Updates require community input. That fact is actually Codified in California Government Code. The mere fact that some candidates ran on platform, and won, doesn't equate their campaign to satisfy the legal requirement of economic land use studies. Political campaigns are not the legal equivalent of the required studies and input again codified by California Government Code. Simply characterizing folks who have a dissenting opinion as anti American or anti pledge to the flag is wrong. The tree huggers have tainted what good dissenting views can bring to the table. Dissenting opinions are American and very patriotic. What I was getting at is be very careful when painting folks who don't agree with your opinion. As shown in my earlier e-mail, we are more patriotic than you give us credit for. This is a legal and land use issue.; March 16, 2007 10:23 AM
Anonymous said...: Read some of the above comments my friend. The city is currently updating its general plan. The land use will not be an issue, as the land will be appropriately zoned.

So, yes, while it is in a sense, a land use issue, it is not the big bugaboo you make it out to be.

Once again, it will be appropriately zoned. Not. A. Problem.; March 16, 2007 10:43 AM
Anonymous said...: But enough from me for now, as I need to drive to Eureka to go shopping at Costco, Winco, and probably Target.

Wish I could do that here.; March 16, 2007 10:44 AM
Anonymous said...: I wish it were that simple. "Just zone it and build it" my friend. While you are in Eureka, pick me up a case of beer at Costco, and ask the City officials there how difficult it is to zone and plan for Big Box development.
Cheers; March 16, 2007 10:54 AM
Anonymous said...: Must be easy enough. There are several there already, and the last time I checked, Fortuna won't have to deal with any "capping" issues and other issues dealing with Humboldt Bay.; March 16, 2007 11:10 AM
Anonymous said...: ive heard about a group called Fortuna First who don't want a big box. Can someone tell me who these people are so I can avoid their businesses. One other thing, who sent tha flyer a couple of weeks ago with no return address?; March 16, 2007 2:02 PM
Anonymous said...: Silly big box shoppers...your misconception over your Right to Shop has been encouraged by the corporations that stand to gain. When Wal-Mart tried to rezone waterfront property in Eureka back in 1999 from industrial to commercial, they produced literature that told residents the fight was all about "your right to shop at Wal-Mart". the "right to rezoning" seemed too abstract - but a "right to shop" hit closer to home. WalMart hired a law firm from San francisco to draft a four-page legislative document entitled "Citizens' Right to Vote on a Wal-Mart in Eureka". It was actually a detailed re-zoning amendment, hiding behind the rhetoric of "citizens' rights". Of course the battle was not about the Right to Shop, it was about the rezoning of the land. Wal-Mart took the next five months and spent $235,000. on a voter campaign that they ultimately lost by a 61% to 39% margin. I truly think Fortuna's residents would be equally intelligent enough to vote down a town-swallowing monster retail store if given a chance to vote as Eureka residents were. Let's not let a few people in office decide such an important issue! Let's bring it to vote and allow ourselves time to listen to ALL the arguments for and against. Beware of the mighty WM...the key principle behind Sprawl-Mart's everyday low pricing, is that their prices are based on the level of competition in that given community at that given time. In a diverse marketplace, Sprawl-Mart's prices are kept down only because of the company of other players..... This explains the preoccupation with constantly monitoring the other local retailers' prices. But as those other players die off, the pressure on pricing eases up, allowing prices to float higher. Don't assume all Sprawl-Mart prices are similar at all locations...despite their largeness, they very much play the retail game on a regional level. You don't get that big without knowing how to play the game. Who suffers? The consumers...Uh...that be you silly big box shoppers.; March 16, 2007 2:45 PM
Anonymous said...: We are getting a Wal-Mart no matter what anyone says. Katz "came-a-courtin" in Paradise promising a non-Walmart big box. The entitlement process didn't go his way, so he told the Town of Paradise you are leaving me no option but to build a Wal-mart. Expect the same here Duane.; March 16, 2007 3:09 PM
Anonymous said...: The reason Katz was careful not to say "Wal-Mart" is that he knows that name has become taboo and synonymous with boarded up empty eyesore villages that "once were"....Katz is no dummy, no use stirring up a hornet's nest...I suppose as a big box shopping center developer, ya never know if a community is gonna have a few people who might have an idea of the devastation that results from Wal-Mart invasion....he knows that it's best to avoid saying the "M" word until it's too late and all the permits are in place. Then it's off to the next comminity victim.; March 16, 2007 3:23 PM
Anonymous said...: 2:45,

Once again, try coming up with a a response of your own, a response to some of the well thought out pro big box posts, instead of quoting verbatim from the anti W book. Silly elitist.

Your argument with regards to the Eureka project has no merit. That was more about putting a wallmart on THE WATERFRONT. The last time I checked, we arent quite sitting on the bay.

And the folks (once again) HAVE VOTED. Just because it did NOT go your way doesnt mean you get a do-over. Again, if you feel so strongly about this, by all means, run on an anti platform in two years.

Perhaps you might get one or two vots.; March 16, 2007 3:23 PM
Anonymous said...: Man you can't let go of the equating political campaign and the entitlement process. I voted for Bush because I thought we'd get Social Security reform. Bush one did we get it. It no guarentee of anything!!; March 16, 2007 3:41 PM
Bernie said...: No one is going to take credit for the flyers but whoever it was had to have some help. It took some money to send everyone in Fortuna and surrounding area a flyer. That means some outside group is helping the people that want to stop progress!; March 16, 2007 3:49 PM
Anonymous said...: I'm not sure, but I think the earlier entry regarding Eureka was trying to make the point/warning that the powerful big box stores and their legal army will manipulate & twist the topics to reach a favorable result and to beware. Also..unless I missed it, Fortuna's citizens have not had and probably will not ever have, (unfortunately), an opportunity to vote on the rezoning of the Palco site to allow for big box retail. Maybe I'm wrong about that...hope so.; March 16, 2007 3:58 PM
Anonymous said...: "Man you can't let go of the equating political campaign and the entitlement process."

Entitlement process?? Wow, what elitist drivel. This whole blog is about the General Plan Update for the City and the appropriate zoning for the proposed big box development.

As four of the five councilpersons have gone on record in support of such a rezone, then it is fait accompli - it's gonna happen, all your wailing about it will not stop it.

"Also..unless I missed it, Fortuna's citizens have not had and probably will not ever have, (unfortunately), an opportunity to vote on the rezoning of the Palco site to allow for big box retail"

The City Council election last election was a referendum on this development. It was a major part of EVERY winning candidate's platform.

If the rezone went to a general election, I have no doubt it would pass by AT LEAST a 70 percent margin.; March 16, 2007 5:39 PM
Anonymous said...: If there was a referendum then why did you, "Council member", waste our time and our money and ask our opinion? What were the five public workshops for? Why list the PALCO mill site as a focus area to study with the General Plan Update? Why hire the consultants for $500,000??!! Why have three alternatives and bring it down to one? So you are saying this was all an expensive charade at the tax payers expense? That would mean we have an irresponisble City Government here in Fortuna.; March 17, 2007 12:13 AM
Anonymous said...: In referencing from a book on the topic of big box retail:
When a dollar enters a community, then is sent or spent outside that community, it's benefit is only felt once. If that same dollar is respent within the community, its benefit is multiplied: it adds more value, pays more wages, finances more investments, and ultimately creates more jobs. Thanks to this "multiplier effect" each transaction in which the dollar is involved creates just as much local wealth as one new dollar from the outside. A study in 2003 by the Institute for Local Self Reliance in Maine concluded that the biggest big box chain (you know the one)...returned only 14.1% of its revenue to the local economy, mostly in the form of payroll....compared with 44.6% from locally owned businesses. The rest leaves the state flowing to out-of-state suppliers and/or back to corporate headquarters. The analysis recommended that expanding local businesses would be a better economic strategy than chasing after chain stores. The survey also concluded that local businesses contributed four times as much to local charities, relative to overall sales.
O.K. Bring in your dang big box store already...I do agree with a few of you that are in favor of it..about one thing: "it is gonna happen and its already practically rubber stamped"
As the previous entry suggests: "there has been an expensive charade" ....which I suppose is a nessesary formal part of the whole process. Give the people against it a chance to vent a little, make them believe they had a missed chance to stop it, then break ground. So build it...but at least be honest enough to acknowledge the possiblity that there is some truth to some of what the opposing views are saying about what WILL happen to our town.; March 17, 2007 7:10 AM
Anonymous said...: For the record: In 1999 the voters in Eureka were not necessarily as concerned with their "waterfront" area being developed, as they were more specifically concerned with the fact that it was a Mal-Mart that wanted to be there. Luckily, the fact that this waterfront property was not zoned for retail, it gave them (the townsfolk)a legal leg to stand on in preventing the WM from coming in.
I lived in Eureka at this time and I attended the standing room only public meeting on the issue at the Muni in Eureka and believe me, it was much more of a Wal-Mart issue than a Waterfront issue.
The "Friends of Eureka" brought in a speaker/activist specializing in educating communities about big box aftermath & helping towns across America to fight to save their hometowns. Wal-Mart brought in some corporate representatives and even some employees from their then recently built store in Crescent City to speak about their jobs and how much the store there enhanced their town (have you seen Crescent City's downtown lately? I think their locals call it "Little Lebanon")
...That was one wild night. I felt sorry for the speakers who were trying to convince the crowd that a Wal-Mart would be a good thing for their town.... Eureka residents were out in force that night. The cheers for the anti big box speakers and their valid points could almost be heard 20 Miles South...uh...about where Fortuna is...how ironic.; March 17, 2007 8:16 AM
Anonymous said...: "The cheers for the anti big box speakers and their valid points could almost be heard 20 Miles South...uh...about where Fortuna is...how ironic."

Yes, how "ironic" that Fortunan's long known for their common sense are OVERWHELMINGLY in support of this project, whilst Eurekans' did not support Walmart on the ballon tract. And believe me, I was there as well.

All of the editorializing was due to the proximity to Humboldt Bay, with the exception of a few. The mailers sent out against the Walmart used proximity to the bay as their main reason for opposition.

Spin it as you want, but I was there too, and I remember it well.; March 17, 2007 8:26 AM
Lola Cathey said...: I am a fifth generation Humboldt County resident. I have lived in Fortuna for 44 years.

When I raised my children here in Fortuna, I did not have to leave town to shop. Everything was here. Over the years this has changed.

Today as I drive to Eureka to purchase the items I cannot find in Fortuna, I cannot help being disappointed.

I will also be looking at how much gas I consume at over $3 per gallon.

As gas prices keep going up, transportation to purchase items not available in Fortuna will become excessive.

Please put in a big box store.

Sincerely,
Lola Cathey; March 17, 2007 8:38 AM
Anonymous said...: "For the record: In 1999 the voters in Eureka were not necessarily as concerned with their "waterfront" area being developed, as they were more specifically concerned with the fact that it was a Mal-Mart that wanted to be there. Luckily, the fact that this waterfront property was not zoned for retail, it gave them (the townsfolk)a legal leg to stand on in preventing the WM from coming in. "

All I can say to that is WOW. How terribly disingenuous(sp).

First, you purport to speak for the majority of Eurekans, by saying that they were specifically against Walmart. That certainly is not the way I remember it.

Then you ADMIT that you, in fact were using a strawman argument by taking the stand that well, it wasnt necessarily walmart, it is the proximity to the bay that concerned you, all the while it WAS Walmart for you.

Do you REALLY think that most Eurekan's, if given the CHOICE you seek to deny, would have a problem with, say, knocking down the Kmart, and putting a nice, shiny new Walmart in its place?

I thought not.; March 17, 2007 9:00 AM
Anonymous said...: Fortunan's known for common sense? The consultants were trying to help Fortunan's make informed decisions.

You folks really need more shopping opportunities, but was is hard to fathom is Fortuna's willingness to destroy its economy in the process.

You don't have the popluation to support a regional shopping center. A PHD economist has has proven that. I'm sorry if the guy is educated, you'll probably call that elistist too. But, oh I forgot, you ran on a platform of Big box so that automatically cancels out the economic and land use data!

From what I have read on this blog the "naysayers" want retail choice while still protecting what business you have left. Don't you have a chamber of commerce down there? Are they just as naive as your Council members?; March 17, 2007 10:32 AM
Anonymous said...: Lola Cathey: I read your opinion and respect it. Your reasons for wanting more shopping in Fortuna make perfect sense to me. What I don't get is the part at the end where you say you want a big box. Why does it have to be a big box? What is the obsession with these community gobbling big boxes? Wouldn't 3 or 4 or 5 small boxes be better than 1 big box? Better service, less hassle finding stuff,
better jobs, more Little League sponsors, more diversification, less walking, more convenience....well you get the picture. Everything under one roof sounds very unappealing to me.; March 17, 2007 11:31 AM
Anonymous said...: Yeah, we can't say we really have to have a regional shopping center because the gas to Eureka is too expensive, then in the same breath say we can justify building this regional shopping center because the people of Eureka will drive down here....It just ain't gonna happen. Northern Humboldt shoppers have not, do not, and will not drive to Fortuna in large enough numbers to justify this project.; March 17, 2007 11:49 AM
Anonymous said...: Just as folks now drive up to Crescent City and Ukiah to go to walmart and home depot, they will drive to Fortuna to do the same.

I hate to say it to you, but a PHd hasn't "proven" anything. In fact, the experts who are wanting to build this are in it to make a profit; I'd take their expertise over some academic type, as someone has previosly stated,
the developers are not in this to lose money.; March 17, 2007 12:59 PM
Anonymous said...: The money they burn in gas negates what savings they perceive they are getting. If they dumb enough to drive to Ukiah to "save" money then let them!

Most Big box site market analysts are actually trained in Geography and Economics. I personally know some. Where do they get their training, from, a fortune cookie?
I hope from a qualified professional! I trust my dentist, I'm sure he learned from an academic type. Your argument doesn't make any sense.; March 17, 2007 2:35 PM
Anonymous said...: We need a good shopping center as soon as possible with good ingress and egress as $4.00 per gallon gas is coming soon. We must not stagnate as a city. Living in the past is not practical.

Access to the river for the public is important. In our travels, we have seen many small towns with public access for recreation.

Rita Coleman; March 17, 2007 3:09 PM
Anonymous said...: I just heard about this blog and I am reading with interest. I am a long time Fortuna resident and beleive that we do need a major shopping center here in Fortuna. Why let the tax money go somewhere else? If you don't build it in Fortuna, it will go in somewhere else and they will get the benefit. Also, everyone I know did vote for the candidates for council that seemed to support a shopping center. I voted for Campbell, Whitchurch and Glaser becasue they all seemed to want a big box. Shelton lost (badly) because he did not support the big box and was a member of Fortuna First. If any city councilmen are reading this, remember who supported you in your election and know that a vast majority of this city's residents want a major shopping center.; March 17, 2007 3:19 PM
Anonymous said...: "The money they burn in gas negates what savings they perceive they are getting. If they dumb enough to drive to Ukiah to "save" money then let them!"

More elitist TRIPE!!!

I personally know MANY general contractors who really save by going to Home Depot and loading up on fixtures, as opposed to buying at Pierson's or Forbusco.

Thanks for talking down to us dummies, but even we can figure out that if we load up on fixtures and appliances that we can get for way less than half the price than piesons and forbusco, it's well worth the price of a tank of gas.

Specially if we use a pick up truck (you may not know what that is, as your busy drivin' around in your lexus.)

So, spare me your pointy headed intellectual drivel. It all comes down to which "expert" one wants to believe, and like I said, I'll trust the ones that are willing to put their development dollars on the line.; March 17, 2007 3:20 PM
Anonymous said...: "Most Big box site market analysts are actually trained in Geography and Economics. I personally know some. Where do they get their training, from, a fortune cookie?"

Again, Sherlock, if you think that someone willing to put take on a financial risk doesnt have trained experts, then you need to think again.

It's like a trial, where both the defense and prosecution have their own set of "experts" and once again,
I think that those who are willing to take a financial risk, probably have some goll dang gooduns.; March 17, 2007 3:25 PM
Anonymous said...: To the person who keeps rewriting others' quotes, then personally attacks them and their opinions. You seem to be the only one writing in favor of big box...and you're doing it in a very defensive and abusive manner. WHY DON'T WE TRY TO KEEP OUR ARGUMENTS CIVIL?; March 17, 2007 7:08 PM
Anonymous said...: Thanks for the blog about keeping it civil.; March 17, 2007 8:15 PM
Anonymous said...: Tell me, what excactly is so abusive about referring to specific quote to show someone how uniformed they are?

Are you moderating this forum? Perhaps you are new to the world of Blogs?; March 17, 2007 9:42 PM
Anonymous said...: And perhaps we are just releasing some pent up frustration over all of these anonymouse mailers from the socalled friends of fortuna, who are anything but.; March 17, 2007 9:42 PM
Anonymous said...: "WHY DON'T WE TRY TO KEEP OUR ARGUMENTS CIVIL? "

Why are you SHOUTING AT ME?; March 17, 2007 9:44 PM
Anonymous said...: This is all very interesting, but there appears to be a real misunderstanding about how a retail market works. Retail doesn't put money in people's pockets, it just gives them places to spend it.

Building new retail stores does not bring in new sales, it just redistributes the existing sales. Dr. Hackett's analysis showed quite clearly that Fortuna's retail market is not expected to grow significantly, with or without a Big Box center. The sales that would be needed to support those Big Box stores will primarily come from existing stores in the area, and will not result in any significant increase in sales tax revenue. More than likely, a Big Box retail center will result in a net loss of locally-owned stores, a net loss in jobs, and a net loss of spending money in people's pockets.

The new Target store in Eureka is bringing in barely 25% of the sales tax revenue that was promised, and its sales are tapering off now that the "new store novelty" is gone.

Economic development is hard work, and it can't be done by just bringing in one big shopping center, or one new industry. The fastest growing sectors of our economy are all home-grown businesses, and a multiple use development on the Palco mill site could create a great location for some of these businesses to locate. That would really help Fortuna's economy by putting money in people's pockets, not just giving them places to spend it.; March 17, 2007 10:18 PM
Anonymous said...: I vehemently agree with the above blog entry. After the hype and excitement of a new, say, Wal-Mart, for example, wears off....and the people from our Northerly citites realize it's just another inconvenient oversized building housing a glorified K-Mart that costs an extra 10 to 15 bucks in gas to visit...and stop visiting, and things begin to settle down, the realization of what has happened will sink in: ...not only will many existing locally owned businesses be gone, but perhaps even worse: all potential for future new upstart small businesses in our town will have been thwarted. And we'll have basically just one big store left to buy our "stuff"...
We'll be just like all the other towns our size scattered across America that have had to accept the fact that pretty much every consumer need they have will mean another trip to the mega store. 40 minute shopping trips for a 5 minute item....(parking waaay out there....walking the abnormally long distance to the front door, walking a couple football field worth searching gigantic isles for your item....walking back up to the front where the line is long & slow, filled with other empty eyed Wal-Martians, saving your .63 cents at the register, then making the hike back to your vehicle..as the sucking sound of your local dollar makes it way to Arkansas... Phew! Gawd I'm gonna miss shopping at smaller stores. Granted, we need a few more smaller stores right now, but that is already happening, and all we have to do to keep out the above scenario is limit the allowed square footage for retail in our town to keep it consumer friendly.
Next time any of you head down Santa Rosa way, stop in the the little town of Windsor and look what they have done to their city with a mixture of retail restaurants and housing. It is amazingly attractive, has attracted a wide assortment of interesting shops, and has made Winsor an instantly popular tourist/shopper visit....practically overnight. Let's bring something that is truly unique to our town...be creative..."that" will bring shoppers to Fortuna...not what folks already have...large discount stores...Fortuna should consider this other type of develpoment rather than boring cookie cutter big box unoriginal "too big" type stores...; March 18, 2007 8:54 AM
Anonymous said...: where exactly are these smaller stores I am supposed to be spending my money at?

as someone pointed out earlier, smaller retail development will likely hurt existing business more than a big box will.

And, once again, I'll take the experts who are willing to take the financial risks over someone pontificating from their ivory tower, ala E.W. every time.; March 18, 2007 10:21 AM
Anonymous said...: The real risk is not to the developer, but to the local community. The developer's only concern is whether there are enough sales to support the new retail development. It makes no difference to him where those sales come from.; March 18, 2007 11:56 AM
Erin Wall said...: Mr. or Ms. Anonymous is your E.W. in the ivory tower, referring to me? If so, have the guts to put your name on your comments. I personally think everyone should be required to put their names on their comments. I doubt many of you would be so disrespectful to others if you had to sign your names to your comments.

By, the way, I got my data from the city's own consultants. It is the data and analysis that the city is paying $500,000 for. I did not make up stuff and use data from towns and cities nothing like us, from across the country. Also, like another blogger said earlier, if this was all decided at the last election why is the city paying $500,000, holding community workshops and listing the PALCO Mill site as a focus area? Who is really uninformed? Please, like I have said before, take a look at the data and analysis yourself, do not take my word for it? Most of it is on the city's website. You will have to ask for Dr. Hackett's response to Mr. Katz's "data and analysis" regarding a regional shopping center, at the city. They really should post that to the website too but,..., oh well, you can pick it up at the city.; March 18, 2007 12:36 PM
Anonymous said...: We Love Wal-Mart but sure wouldn't want one in "our" Town.

I just read about this blog site in the Eureka reporter..neat idea! It took me an hour to read all input thus far. Interesting reading!!.
I am (or at least was) in favor of a big box - We need more places to shop! However, reading some of the good arguments against big stores has made me aware of things I never really thought of or considered before.
My husband and I live and work in Fortuna. Whenever we go out of town to the Bay Area, we will stop and hit a Wal-Mart on the way home..(love their cheap plants!...and I think my husband paid $2.69 for a 6-pack of Fruit of the Loom tighty whities!!...I mean that has got to be some kind of new low cost record! He was estatic!)..of course, these stores are in densely populated towns that seem to be able to handle the size of the stores. I'm beginning to have my doubts about whether Fortuna can handle it without destroying some of our small town benefits .
I have at least about 5 stores that I can think of in Fortuna right now (and I'm sure a few more will hit me)that I would almost cry if they were forced out of business. They are personable, unique businesses that help make the character of our town with owners who are hands-on involved and who I am sure support generously to every Tom, Dick, & Harry that walks in their door asking for donations representing local causes.
Here's our take on the issue: My husband and I love to shop at Wal-Mart but are not convinced it is a keen idea for Fortuna. So we have come up with the perfect solution if we get one!
We're going to move to Ferndale!!!
Yep! It's only 8 to 10 minutes away, has all the small town charm anyone could ask for, has small stores for hardware, groceries, clothing, shoes, etc. Has a great selection of restaurants (pizza, Mexican, Steak & Seafood, even the famous Red Front Store Hot Dogs!!
This way we can zip across the river to Wal-Mart and the other mammoth stores in the "new" Fortuna and be back in our "new" unruined town within 8 to 10 minutes!! Heck, we can even walk to the County Fair in August. So, with this option in mind, I suppose I am still in favor of a big old honkin' regional shopping center in Fortuna..Bigger the better! If is gonna be done, do it right and make it HUGE! We'll be living on the other side of the Eel so why would we care?; March 18, 2007 12:44 PM
Bernie said...: I have to say this time I agree with Mrs. Wall (I’m sure this is a one time thing) but everyone should be using there names when they post a comment. If we’re brave enough to speak up and have an opinion we should be proud enough to use our name. However, in these types of debates words can get heated and as the saying goes “if you can’t take the heat you should get out of the kitchen.” I would like to see the comments kept civil but we all can’t pontificate like of Mrs. Wall who is well educated and well spoken. For the rest of us we try and use our passion to relay our point of view and sometimes that means getting a little robust in our dialog.

Having said all that, I’m tired of driving to Crescent City or Ukiah to visit a Home Depot. I’m really tired of having to drive to Santa Rosa or Sacramento for a good suit or for my wife to find a good pair of shoes. I want a large shopping mall with choices and several restaurants to choose from. I’m willing to spend my money right here in Fortuna if only I had something to spend it on. How can that be so difficult to understand?; March 18, 2007 3:58 PM
Anonymous said...: Anonymity in certain forums such as this can sometimes be helpful to encourage certain individuals who have good reason to not disclose their identity .....perhaps they are a council member who despite having their own opinions, must be careful to represent all the people. Or maybe it is a business owner afraid to lose the loyalty of customers who's opinions differ from theirs...or they're afraid of being accused of conflicts of interest even though none exist. Maybe some of the rather heated exchanges would scare a nonconfrontational person away from voicing their opinion. Maybe it is the land owner who wants to express his/her point of view without being thrown into things.
Yes, I think having an opportunity to remain annonymous brings out more participants and otherwise missed views for both sides of an argument. As long things remain civil this is a good way to get as much as our public to speak as possible.; March 18, 2007 5:49 PM
Anonymous said...: Regarding the comment about Windsor...

Windsor has both a WalMart and a Home Depot right off of the highway.

So, maybe you can use your high visibility highway commercial property for "bigboxes" to draw folks off of the highway and still "cutesy" up your Main Street like Windsor has.

It works for them.; March 18, 2007 8:42 PM
Anonymous said...: Hey Bernie, It is not difficult to understand. I think as Fortunan's we all want what you speak of. I think there are many aspects to this issue that have been brought to light by this blog.
However, I'm reading very concerned comments, on this blog, about going too far with our retail choices, as in a Super Wal-mart doing some real damage to what commerce we do have in Fortuna. I would have to agree with them.

There has to be a way of accomodating our needs without killing the rest of our businesses.
I just think a Wal-mart would be a disaster for our town.; March 18, 2007 9:08 PM
Anonymous said...: In recent years, Fortuna has experienced a large amount of residential growth, and we currently have 200+ residential lots on the books.
It is a fact that the city gets very little money from property taxes. Residential development is not a money maker for a city.
It is also a fact that when the city approves a residential subdivision, it accepts the responsibility of maintaining the additional infrastructure upon completion of the development. Infrastructure, being roads, storm sewer, sanitary sewer, water lines, etc, costs money to maintain. (Let's not bring up our recent water & sewer rate increase!)
Another fact: Sales taxes are the life blood of a city. That is where we receive our operating capital.
That is why it is very irresponsible city planning to grow residentially without growing the retail sector.

So, let's accomodate some needs here.

A large-scale retail development is the "Ace-in-the-hole" for Fortuna's existing businesses, the city of Fortuna and the residents of Fortuna. A development of this nature at the PL mill site would generate an increase in sales tax revenue by:
* Pulling travelers off 101. (Check the recent traffic count!)
* Expanding our trade area to include Eureka, points north, and Garberville (which is now leaking to Ukiah).
Existing businesses that capitalize on the increased customer base will profit.
The City of Fortuna will experience a great boost to it's coffers.
The citizens of Fortuna will enjoy the benefits of a well maintained infrastructure and maybe some new ammenities (pool, senior center, walking trails, skatepark, etc) without the burden of utility taxes or bond sales.

On the other hand, the smaller-scale retail development currently under construction on Fortuna Blvd will do almost nothing to generate more sales tax revenue for the city.
* No visibility on 101 to pull in travelers.
* No out-of-the-area draw. Eureka already has the same businesses.
* Fortuna already contains similar businesses that will now have to compete against "new and shiny" selling the same products and services to the same customer base.

If you wanted Fortuna to "stay the same", where were you when hundreds of residential units were being approved?

If you wanted to protect our existing businesses, where were you when a retail development that directly competes with them was being approved?

These actions have already changed our town, and that is not necessarily a bad thing!; March 19, 2007 12:24 AM
Anonymous said...: I think someone missed the point about Wndsor, Ca. The point was to look at their old downtown area revitalization as an example of a possibility for the Palco site as opposed to big box. Yes, Windsor has a Wal-Mart and a Home Depot, but Windsor and Healdsburg the communities they target together have over 50,000 people. (Not to mention the certain draw they get from South Santa Rosa residents). The average annual household income in Windsor, Ca. is a whopping $74,026, compared to Fortuna's $33,812. Windsor's unemployment rate is down to 4.30% compared to Fortuna's 5.70%.
So as you can see, the point was not to compare Windsor as a whole to Fortuna which is ridiculous, but rather to make note/suggest a handsome project for Fortuna similar to what they have done in regard to their very attractive new downtown area.; March 19, 2007 7:50 AM
Anonymous said...: Yes, Windsor did some revitalization. Where do you think they got the money to do that?

The City of Fortuna has NO money to do any sort of revitalization. Where have you been? Look around town!! Most of the projects that the city has done comes from donations (park's cook shack, monday club).

Why do people assume that if Katz doesn't do a project, the City of Fortuna will step in??? This is an absolutely ludicrous assumption!

Have you read our recent Capital Improvement Plan? Look how many projects have been deferred over the years. That is what prior councils did to keep Fortuna in the black.

It will absolutely take an outside developer to come in here and do something with the mill site. And...you can't tell someone what to do with their property.; March 19, 2007 9:18 AM
Anonymous said...: ...you can't tell someone what to do with their property.

Actually, you can. That's what zoning is for.; March 19, 2007 9:33 AM
Anonymous said...: Let me clairfy...

You can't tell someone what do do with their property if their project complies with the zoning.

If the Mill site is zoned Mixed Use then a big box can go in.

And it will.; March 19, 2007 9:40 AM
Anonymous said...: Who is going to design the mixed use layout? Fred Katz is a cookie cutter strip maller, which is the exact opposite of what mixed use zoning is used for.

Katz's projects, are the same "garbage" that more forward thinking cities, including Eureka (Balloon Tract)are moving away from.

May I suggest the City look at PlaceMakers, DPZ or Fisher Hall, Those firms desgin true mixed use.; March 19, 2007 10:47 AM
Anonymous said...: 10:47, If Katz's plan fits withing the parameters of the zoning, then it is his right to build as he sees fit.; March 19, 2007 12:25 PM
Anonymous said...: Citing the average incomes of folks in Windsor vs Fortuna makes the need for a discount shopping center in Fortuna all the more obvious. If you are living off of 35 thou a year you are not spending loads of time and money lounging about at a coffee houses or browsing thru "interesting" shops.

Here in Fortuna we have the perfect demographic for Walmart shoppers. Look around. Flannel shirts, sweatpants, cheap shoes, thorw away furniture etc. That is the core of what goes on here.

Fortunans and the greater Humboldt population represent folks who have to watch their money. I would LOVE to be able to afford to shop in a small and quaint clothing shop (we don't have one but perhaps like Ferndale clothing co). Unfortunately, I can't afford it. I need inexpensive clothing and there is NONE in Fortuna.

So, I have to pay 3.29 a gallon to drive to Eureka in order to buy a $20.00 pair of jeans when mine wear out. While I'm there, I will shop at Winco and save HALF on my groceries.

Common folks do not shop in "quaint" or "interesting" jobs for essentials like food and clothing.

Here in Fortuna, we need something for the common folk who want value and choice.

In Windsor, I'd be willing to wager that the folks who live there shop at Walmart and Home Depot.

It would be great to have a revitalized downtown that catered to tourists but I think we need to take care of our own here in town before we go there.

Let's get some affordable shopping here in Fortuna and then we can go about that "quaint" stuff.; March 19, 2007 12:36 PM
Anonymous said...: Ah yes...but there are hidden high costssucu for low prices. Can we afford it?; March 19, 2007 1:09 PM
Anonymous said...: Yes!!!! A resounding YES!!!
A better question is can we afford NOT to?

Enough scare tactics, there is NO downtown to kill. It's a ghost town now, a regional shopping center with a big box will bring folks to fortuna.; March 19, 2007 1:14 PM
Anonymous said...: About bringing folks to Fortuna...

Think of it like a rock concert.

You have to have the "big name" in order for folks to buy the ticket.
Then at the concert, they may discover that they really like the band that starts for the big name.
The headliner band always brings the crowd, and the smaller name gets a chance to show their stuff.

Well....we need the "big name" in retail to bring the folks in, and then they can discover the small shops.

Right now Fortuna doesn't have a big name.

So, it is akin to trying to entice concertgoers with Englebert Humperdink as the headliner.; March 19, 2007 1:29 PM
Anonymous said...: Pretty desparate when Walmart gets billed as a "big name" or even worse equated with economic development! I think the desparation lies with PALCO's urgency to dump the property and pay off unsecured creditors. Anyone seen Campbell's Form 700's lately?; March 19, 2007 2:41 PM
Anonymous said...: Englebert Humperdinck is a perfect comparison to Wal-Mart. Ugly, imported to America, (like all that Chinese made junk), and never was that great......; March 19, 2007 3:08 PM
Bernie said...: That’s so ridiculous I don’t care what Campbell’s 700 form looks like, I’m more interested in how far I have to travel to buy inexpensive goods or any goods as far as that goes. I wish I had made some savvy business moves like Mr. Campbell has had the opportunity to make in the past but that’s not where I’m at. I don’t think badly of anyone that’s worked hard in their life and have attained a level of prosperity and comfort, remember that’s the American dream.

I keep hearing about our downtown and it’s been pointed out many times, we don’t have a downtown we have a ghost-town. Yes it might be a shame to call Wal-Mart the headliner. But when you have two bars a candy store and some antique shops in our city limits Wal-Mart is a big deal. I’d like to see an Outlet Mall here and a couple nice hotels as well to attract the tourists. The Mall will be for Southern Humboldt and Fortuna residents the Outlet Mall could help revitalize our ghost-town. Let’s get this plan updated and get started on our future.; March 19, 2007 3:25 PM
Anonymous said...: I have to buy a specific graphing calculator.

After much searching and price comparing, I am ready to make my purchase.

Radio Shack doesn't have it.

So now, I could drive to Eureka.

Staples has it for 149.99.
Costco doesn't carry it.
Target doesn't carry it.

Now, I go online.

Walmart has it for 123.00.

Since I don't have a Walmart, I will buy it online, pay 4 bucks to ship it and save myself roughly 22 bucks.

If I had a Walmart locally, I could drive over there, buy the calculator and then spend the 22 bucks I saved.

And, Fortuna would get the sales tax revenue.; March 19, 2007 4:03 PM
Anonymous said...: Follow up on the graphing calculator....

I called Staples and they will price match the Walmart price.

Does that now make Staples evil?

I guess Eureka will get the sales tax.; March 19, 2007 4:59 PM
Anonymous said...: That does not make Staples evil...bless their stupid little heart. They should know they can't compete with starvation wages, no emphasis on competent service and zero employee benefits...kpkokq; March 19, 2007 5:42 PM
Anonymous said...: "That does not make Staples evil...bless their stupid little heart. They should know they can't compete with starvation wages, no emphasis on competent service and zero employee benefits...kpkokq"

You know, I wish once in awhile one of you antis would answer the questions that have been asked, such as, gee, how many businesses on main street do you think are paying much more than minimum wage, with benefits.

With the exception of home health, which hardly qualifies as a retail operation, the answer would be, nada.

Continue to dodge the questions though, and demonize walmart. We'll still see right through it and call you on it every time.; March 19, 2007 6:11 PM
Anonymous said...: Starvation wages? Zero benefits?

Like the poster above said, what local business provides more? Most of them employ their families and probably don't even pay the taxes.

You fat cats who slam Walmart for low wages are the same ones who have no problem driving thru the fast food joints(minimum wage,no benefit jobs) and load up on burgers made with meat processed by meat packers making minimun wage and tomatoes and onions picked by minimum wage workers.

Oh, and what about the busboy cleaning your table off at Peppers?

And the Chevron employee? Valero? Shell?

Do you honestly think the beleagured clerk who waits on you at Rite-aid has benefits?; March 19, 2007 6:23 PM
Anonymous said...: The wage comparison is not really a significant issue. Chances are that the wages at a WalMart, a Lowes, or a Home Depot are about the same as those paid by local retailers.

The real issues are the number of those wage jobs, and the number of ownership jobs. Locally owned stores provide ownership and investment in the community. Chain stores do not.

Let's do some easy math (so we don't need that expensive graphing calculator.) Imagine that Fortuna has 10 small stores with 10 employees each for a total of 100 workers. If these are locally owned, then chances are that each business may have 2 owners (partners or a husband and wife.) They are building equity in their community while providing jobs. The property owner is an additional person invested in the community. The local business is also far more likely to utilize local services for their needs (accounting, bookkeeping, shipping, advertising, etc) rather than having them provided by some distant parent corporation. All in all, those 100 low-wage jobs likely support a matching number of higher wage professional or ownership jobs, giving them a multiplier of 2X.

Compare that with a WalMart or whatever. A big box with 100 employees probably has about 10 management positions, a few of which are likely to pay well. However, there are no local owners, no local services, and no investment in the community. Advertising, accounting, etc is all done remotely. Even the upper management of the store is done in some far-off place. There is also only a single property owner (Mr Katz's company) and he is down in Sacramento. The total benefit to the community is the 100 low-wage jobs. There is no multiplier effect.

If a WalMart or some other big box wipes out these small local stores, then there is a substantial net loss of jobs, and a loss of ownership and investment in the community. A small-town economy works best when its businesses are locally owned.; March 19, 2007 8:47 PM
Anonymous said...: "Let's do some easy math (so we don't need that expensive graphing calculator.) Imagine that Fortuna has 10 small stores with 10 employees each for a total of 100 workers..."

Here's the the thing though; I don't buy into your argument that a Walmart is going to wipe out ten small businesses. I dont think ten small business exist in Fortuna that would be put out of business by a big box, and if properly niched/marketed/whatever, they could actually be helped by the increased retail traffic coming to Fortuna.

" I think the desparation lies with PALCO's urgency to dump the property and pay off unsecured creditors. Anyone seen Campbell's Form 700's lately? "

Wow, where do I start with this one. Obviously you don't know the first thing about bankruptcy law, as the chapter under which Palco filed affords creditors some pretty strong assurances that they will be paid, including anything they owe John Campbell (as reported in various media).

Your inferences toward John Campell would be repugnant if they were not so laughably stupid and ignorant.

Go ahead and pull all of the council members form 700's, they are public documents.

If you think that John Campbell, who worked for years in a business environment far more sophisticated than a small city council hasnt dotted his "i"s and crossed his "t"s then I have some coastal property with beautiful ocean views in Idaho that I'd like you to take a gander at. Give you a reaaaaal nice deal to.

"Englebert Humperdinck is a perfect comparison to Wal-Mart. Ugly, imported to America, (like all that Chinese made junk), and never was that great...... "

But here's what IS great. Like all Americans, we can choose NOT to listen to Englebert, or Not shop at Walmart. Its just ironic that you would seek to deprive those who would like to shop at the big W in search of E*Humps greatest hits, the choice to do so.

"Like all that Chinese Junk" - man, that just smacks of racism. I remember when people were laughing at all the "made in Japan" stuff back in the 70's, until folks drove by them on the highway in their datsuns and toyotas, as they were waiting for a tow truck to come pick up their chrysler.

Another point to ponder since you obviously dont like Chinese crap. Do you thing that every shop in town is selling stuff only made in the U.S.?; March 19, 2007 9:15 PM
Anonymous said...: The above comment is hypothetical fluff with no factual base whatsoever.; March 19, 2007 9:15 PM
Anonymous said...: Hypothetical fluff was in reference to the blog written at 8:47.; March 19, 2007 9:22 PM
Anonymous said...: Let's build this shopping center soon. It's time Fortuna got its fair share of the pie. Every part of this city will see an increase in business because the people coming to shop at walmart will also drive through downtown and other areas. Fortuna will finally have businesses where young people can get a job while attending CR.; March 19, 2007 9:30 PM
Anonymous said...: ....where young people can get a job, that has opportunity for advancement (unlike Main St) while attending CR.; March 19, 2007 9:40 PM
Anonymous said...: Yes, downtown Fortuna is a ghost town. Even WITHOUT a Wal-Mart to blame!
How many business failures are needed before people get the picture? This is not 1950. Downtown is not the place to be if you wish to be a successful retailer. UNLESS you have the vision to capitalize on an increased customer base brought to town by a major retail development!
As it stands right now, I'm sure I could do a better business selling from the trunk of my car at the "Park and Ride" than in a shop on Main Street; March 19, 2007 10:07 PM
Anonymous said...: Since when is change or progress a bad thing? Progress can be a steady improvement.
Are you still driving the first car you bought? Hopefully, you've been able to update and move-up over the years. If a vehicle "dies", don't we replace it?
Call AAA! Fortuna's retail vehicle has expired along side highway 101.
We have some major retail shortcomings here folks...for whatever reasons. It is time to let some willing retailers fill those voids.
My parents are in their 80's and they are damn glad that their quality of life has improved over the years! Oh yeah...they live in a thriving small town in the midwest...with a Wal-Mart Super Center.; March 19, 2007 10:40 PM
Anonymous said...: This just in...Newsflash! ...and it's great news!

I just found out that Walgreen's sells underwear! Now we won't need that Wal-Mart after all! Whew! that was a close one...
Remember, growth and development are not the same. Growth is an increase in quantity, while development is an increase in quality. This distinction is particularly important to the residents of Fortuna who may end up learning the hard way that growth is not the solution to their economic woes. While we'll all enjoy the benefits of growth, we'll also be vexed by the problems it causes: higher taxes, increased crime, traffic congestion, increasing intolerance, cutthroat competition in local business, higher rents, inconvenient shopping, lack of retail diversification, spiraling costs, etc.
Some people in favor of bog box have said they want choice. That is the first thing that will go out the window. Trust me on this one these HUGE corporations want their stores to be the ONLY place you and I ever shop at again.... & they've got the power to make it happen...just ask the residents of other small towns that have one.; March 20, 2007 7:02 AM
Anonymous said...: Ahh, if it were only underwear.

There simply is NOT a place to go and buy clothes for my kids in Fortuna. Underwear is simply the shining example, as it is since a basic need, and one is unable to provide for it in Fortuna.

So, until there is a place where folks can shop in Fortuna where they can meet all of their basic needs, your so-called
newsflash is old news.; March 20, 2007 7:40 AM
Anonymous said...: "we'll also be vexed by the problems it causes: higher taxes, increased crime, traffic congestion, increasing intolerance, cutthroat competition in local business, higher rents, inconvenient shopping, lack of retail diversification, spiraling costs, etc."

Straight from the "Fortuna First/Friends of Fortuna" Handbook of misinforation and scare tactics.

Let me think about this for a sec:

"Inconvenient shopping" - check. Already have it, big box will alleviate.

"Lack of retail diversification" - I think this speaks for itself. We are already lacking diversification, as we are clamoring for choice.

"Higher Taxes" - HUH???? The housing boom has come and gone. Property taxes have risen.

"Cuthroat competetion" - More scare tactics.; March 20, 2007 7:47 AM
Anonymous said...: Does anyone remember during Katz's presentation when he commented how the location of his big box mecca would allow people to get off the freeway, do all of their shopping at his mall, an get back on the feeway without eer having to drive into Fortuna itself?

Yeah, that's gonna be good for local businesses.; March 20, 2007 8:12 AM
Anonymous said...: "Your inferences toward John Campell would be repugnant if they were not so laughably stupid and ignorant."

Have you read his form 700's? No mention of the 400,000 owed to him by PALCO. So, I'm asking you to explain them to an ignorant small town resident....Explain away the conflict of interest then.; March 20, 2007 8:28 AM
Anonymous said...: And hey Dennis get some work done today or is this what PALCO pays you to do all day!; March 20, 2007 8:33 AM
Anonymous said...: I'll take a shot at this one. As I understand it, PALCO is not located in Fortuna, so there is no disclosure requirement at this point for Mr.Campbell.

Also, the City at this point is negotiating with Fred Katz, who, the last time I checked, not part of the Pacific Lumber Company.

If and when, PALCO becomes involved, then I would expect that John Campbell will do what he is required to do.

I find it sad that some of you would accuse a good man with with innuendo and no facts on your side.

Hope that explains it to you.; March 20, 2007 8:44 AM
Anonymous said...: John, from what I know is a good man. I also voted for him. But, if PALCO owes him a serious amount of money, and KATZ is negotiating with the City. John is the mayor of the City. John is actively taking part in public meetings regarding the rezoning in order to facilitate the sale of this property, wouldn't that be a conflict of interest? Maybe the City attorney should advise??; March 20, 2007 8:57 AM
Anonymous said...: The way I understand it, Palco owes lots of folks in Fortuna. Does that mean that all of them can have no say on the Katz project?

John Campbell is NOT a Debi August. He knows all about and understands the rules regarding conflict of interest. He has access to the top lawyers and plenty of money to pay them. He has always followed proper protocol in the meetings and is a very smart and professional man. I do not think for a minute that he hasn't thorougly checked out everything regarding his association with Palco and the Katz project.

I think it is time that the bashing of our elected Council members stops! They won by a HUGE margin so obviously folks trust them and wanted them to do the job. Let's let them do it for crying out loud!!!!!; March 20, 2007 9:07 AM
Anonymous said...: Once again, KATZ does not own the PALCO property at this point and is not part of PALCO.; March 20, 2007 9:10 AM
Anonymous said...: Campbell is in a position to vote on a zoning change which will allow Palco to sell the property for much more than it is worth under its current zoning, effectively granting the company a windfall. He is also owed some $400,000 of deferred compensation, which theoretically was earned in the past to be paid over time.

Deferred comp is a gray area in terms of conflict, because he is supposedly no longer in the employ of the company, and yet his income still depends upon the company. It is not neccessarily a conflict of interest, but it certainly creates the appearance of a conflict of interest, particularly when his vote is headed in the opposite direction of the general public.; March 20, 2007 11:20 AM
Anonymous said...: How can you say that Campbell's vote is headed in the opposite direction of the general population?

First of all, Campbell hasn't voted on anything and has remained neutral during the joint sessions.

Second of all, the council is supporting the Alternative that is Mixed use, they have not supported the alternative that is for a full regional shopping center.

Thirdly, were you at the general plan workshops????? If you were, then you would've seen and heard that the people there OVERWHELMINGLY wanted large retail to come in. It was quite obvious. I was at every single meeting, including the last one where we were given dots to place on the maps. I personally saw SEVERAL anti-growth/Fortuna first/Friends of Fortuna taking the unused dots from tables and putting more than their share onto their "pet" areas. They attempted to sway the data and I watched it happen. These are the same folks who send out the fliers with the scare tactics and many are local business owners. Talk about conflict of interest!

Fourth, if Mr. Campbell has a "perceived" conflict of interest, then so does Councilman Doug Strehl. He is a main street business owner who has a financial interest in what goes on in regards to retail. He has repeatedly said that he is against new retail or the zoning of retail for anyplace other than Main st. I have heard him lobby for main street over and over. So, wouldn't that be a conflict too?

But, you won't go after him because he is in your camp. Go figure.; March 20, 2007 11:36 AM
Anonymous said...: "particularly when his vote is headed in the opposite direction of the general public."

Gosh, how was he OVERWHELMINGLY elected then, particularly when he ran on a pro-growth, pro-retail (exactly the type of retail development that we are talking about here, btw)?

"It is not neccessarily a conflict of interest, but it certainly creates the appearance of a conflict of interest"

You people go out there and infer all kinds of corruption, then this is all you have??? Again, if you don't think that John Campbell, a man who ran with the big dogs of the business world hasnt had this thourghly vetted by attorneys and advisors, I would be willing to bet you'd be sadly mistaken.

You need to amend the following quote though to this. Here, I've made it more truthful and accurate:

"particularly when his vote is headed in the opposite direction of a small, miniscule, tiny minority of the general public."; March 20, 2007 11:44 AM
Anonymous said...: To the 11:36 and 11:44 posters, you are incredibly obnoxious and overbearing in this blog. You obviously are used to bullying in order to get your way, and seem to think that repeating your unsubstantiated opionions on the issues facing Fortuna holds more weight than the opinions of those people who don't agree with you who are actually providing intelligent observations and factual information.

PALCO has significantly influenced the proceedings in Fortuna in order to benefit from the sale of their property, period. That is fact, and I suspect one or both of you know that fact intimately. They have made it a company goal to insure that workshops and meetings are well attended by their employees (i.e. pro-box supportors) to help facilitate the sale of the property. Your assertion of a large majority of the community being supporters for big box is not necessarily the case. The speakers at the last public hearing on the alternatives were evenly divided. The tables at the workshop that supported the most retail on the mill site were tables that included Katz or PALCO representatives.

Stop trying to make your personal agenda the truth for ther rest of the community. If you have actual facts that will show that a regional shopping center will survive, after Katz is paid the tax increment and other incentives he is seeking so he can push the financial risk onto the taxpayers, then please, provide them instead of your venomous, self-righteous diatribes. The fact is that based on data collected by the City's consultant, we would need to garner 50% of the entire retail sales of the County in order to successfully support a regional shopping center, or draw sales from as far south as Santa Rosa, neither of which is going to happen. Katz's consultant did not make his case for a shopping center, especially since his consultant was so ill prepared that his analysis of our market needs ignored a significant number of existing large retailers that already exist in our market area.

Even looking at just Wal-Mart, it is astounding to me that in this politically and financially conservative, and very independent town, our City Council and some of the community seem to be so anxious to turn their entire retail economy over to a single large retailer, Wal-Mart.; March 20, 2007 12:33 PM
Anonymous said...: "unsubstantiated opionions on the issues facing Fortuna holds more weight than the opinions of those people who don't agree with you who are actually providing intelligent observations and factual information"

You know, after I picked myself off of the floor from laughing so hard, I just had to respond to this. The whole reason that I use what people say is so I can respond to them. Just because you dont agree with my opinion doesnt make me a bully.

"Stop trying to make your personal agenda the truth for ther rest of the community."

Puleeeez, give me a break. And what exactly are YOU doing but trying to do the exact same thing.
Actually I am surprisedy you are responding to this, I thought you'd be busy mailing out anonymous mailers warning us poor bumpkins about the dangers of Walmart.

Finally, tell me, please, what is bullying about the comments coming from 11:36?

He or she provided rational facts, not just opinions. He or She was there at ALL of the workshops. He or She SAW the anti's trying to sway the data. How does that make he or she a bully?

ps, the people want this. Be amazed all you want, but you are in the minority, and the last time I checked we were still part of the US of A; March 20, 2007 12:46 PM
Anonymous said...: Sadly, again folks who have differing opinions are characterized as "you people." I read one blog that assumed that persons who were questioning this process as driving a "Lexus." Better get Butterfly’s agent on the line “we elitists" need her to "tree sit" our VFW flag pole until Walmart is driven-off!

If I recall correctly, we were all invited to participate in this process. According to you, we should all just shut-up and blindly follow the party-line? Sound like a former communist country? And don't answer that blog with that MAJORITY stuff. As one blogger has pointed out, political campaigns are not the legal equivalent of the requirements of a general plan update process. People are speaking-out and you don’t like it.

Damn, just think if it were 1939 Germany, or Iran, you could just shoot people who have differing opinions. Oh'well it's too bad we live in the USA.

I want retail, but I actually care about what retail we have left here. Give people a break we all live in Fortuna because we like it. Big box or not!

I have a mind of my own, and I'm not in some group... I read the data. I trust that your proud majority has not read the data. Alas, the data is no good, because it came from a "pointy-headed academic."

I respect your opinion, you have no respect for mine because it is different, that is not American. It is ok to think for yourself.; March 20, 2007 12:56 PM
Anonymous said...: Right on! You Know Palco has been Calling on their connection in City hall.; March 20, 2007 1:02 PM
Anonymous said...: In response to the 12:33 blog...

I am not a bully. I fail to see how stating my opinions in an intelligent way makes me a bully. The fact that I have a spine and stand up for what I believe in does not make me a bully.

You did not answer my question. How many workshops were you at?? I was at all of them and I have kept the paperwork from them, which includes pictures of the tables. Guess what?? You say that the tables were controlled by Palco bigwigs and their employees. Well, you are wrong. Unless Palco all of a sudden is employing lots of elderly folks, school superintendents, pharmacists,high schoolers,Doctors, developers, real estate agents,business owners etc.

I did not feel that the meetings were controlled by Palco or Mr. Katz.
Whenever a representative from Palco was at a table, it was duly noted by the consultants. The same with Mr. Katz.

Guess what? Some people with their own pet interests went to certain tables and sat there in order to promote their own agendas. I saw local developers, main street business owners and airport enthusiasts all do this. They were looking out for their own interests too.

What really surprised me the most about these workshops is how PUSHY and VOCAL common townfolk were about demanding retail. I saw this again and again each meeting. You had to be there and if you weren't then you have no business commenting.

One time I sat at a table that was by the majority for retail growth. Also at the table was a local business owner who not only tried to talk everyone out of their opinion but he also wrote only what he thought on the paperwork!

Look over the data from the workshops and then tell me that most folks don't want retail.; March 20, 2007 1:14 PM
Anonymous said...: The person on this Forum site who systematically chooses certain quotes from folks who's opinions don't agree with his, rewrites them, then dissects them...you "are" obnoxious and your only way of coming up with points favoring your views is to counter others' original thoughts.; March 20, 2007 1:35 PM
Anonymous said...: I think perhaps that some bloggers are new to this arena and don't understand how blogging works. It is very common and sometimes helpful to print the quote of the point you are going to counter. This helps people to follow along without having to keep re-reading prior blogs in order to remember what was said. It may seem rude but it is how blogging works.

Thank you.; March 20, 2007 1:50 PM
Anonymous said...: A good blog stirs people up. This is what makes them get off of their duff and write something. People are at their best when they are impassioned about something. Getting mad makes for some good blogging and dialog, thus helping the purpose of this forum.; March 20, 2007 2:13 PM
Anonymous said...: I ate some good blog in College once...I slept for 3 days. Saw dragons and dreampt I was wearing a blue vest greeting shoppers in Fortuna at this big scary store...the only one in town.; March 20, 2007 2:21 PM
Anonymous said...: Dude, that sounds like some bad blog. I ate the same bad blog and saw Fortuna Feed and Garden Center's mascot goat getting roasted in a 5 acre Walmart parking Lot by druids in blue vests! Dude. that goat said we were way more than a feed store!!!; March 20, 2007 3:05 PM
Anonymous said...: Through the fog I saw the blog..
and wandered to its bode...

My big box jeans had seen their means...
and up my rear they rode...

I said "no more! a different store...
Is where I'll buy them next"...

These big box pants don't stand a chance...
from now on read the text....

something better than this cheap sweater...
Is now what I say...

I'll drive back & forth and even north...
and don't care what I pay....; March 20, 2007 4:47 PM
Anonymous said...: Gee, thanks for all those insightful comments. You must be very proud of yourself to come up with such thoughtful prose.; March 20, 2007 5:34 PM
Anonymous said...: To the 1:14 blogger, yes, I did attend the workshops, missing one to stay home with the kids so my husband could attend. I agree that people want improved retail, and that includes me. More restaurants would also be wonderful. Why is the retail slow in coming, since we alredy have lots of retail zoned land? Because of our demographics. Even at that, we are in fact getting quite a bit more retail at the Strong Creek Plaza, yet people are clamering for more before it is even built. We also already have plenty of room for more retail to be developed downtown and along Fortuna Blvd. However, wanting more retail and wanting a Wal-Mart are not the same thing. Why are we turning our backs on our core areas in town in order to usher in a store like Wal-Mart on our outskirts? Larger economies can support a Wal-Mart without having devasting impacts on other parts of town, but even at that, larger (and apparently smarter) cities are turning them away.

The economic infeasiblity of a regional shopping center as I presented earlier never seems to be addresed by the Katz project supporters. This is because it cannot be dismissed, but does not support their project. The Council majority does not seem to want to take a realistic look at the numbers and make a fiscally responsible decision because it does not support what they want as politicians. Just because you may want something does not mean it will work! An oversaturation of retail is not healthy, and will be detrimental from a fiscal and land use perspective.

Here's an idea, how about the community demanding and supporting a project that will actually provide jobs that can sustain people? Wouldn't it be progressive to create a City where people could actually better themselves, instead of only providing them with mega stores to suck away all the money they don't have in the first place? If people have money to spend, the necessary retail will be knocking down our doors.; March 20, 2007 5:34 PM
Anonymous said...: "This is because it cannot be dismissed, but does not support their project. The Council majority does not seem to want to take a realistic look at the numbers and make a fiscally responsible decision because it does not support what they want as politicians."

Perhaps the Council majority sees the numbers and interprets them differently than you. Both John Campell and Pat Whitchurch are well versed in the numbers/statistics, and dont seem to have quite the same pessimistic outlook that some of the anti's have.

"Here's an idea, how about the community demanding and supporting a project that will actually provide jobs that can sustain people?"

Well, I wish that it was that easy. Does "demanding" better jobs actually create more jobs though? Everyone I know here in Fortuna would love for there to be more high paying industrial jobs, but a community rising up and "demanding" that it be, does not make it so.

There are fundamental problems with our Highways, with the port up in Eureka, and with the railway system, that make it difficult, if not impossible for good industry to relocate to Fortuna.; March 20, 2007 6:06 PM
Anonymous said...: It would be nice to have high paying jobs in Fortuna but even if I could snap my fingers and right now everyone in Fortuna made over 50 grand a year it wouldn't help our city coffers a bit because the workers would have nowhere to spend their money! They would continue to go to Eureka and outside Humboldt for everything.; March 20, 2007 6:27 PM
Anonymous said...: The neccessary retail is already knocking on our door, and you are acting like they are vacuum cleaner salesmen. Well, they do sell vacuums and so much more.
Maybe, if we had some major retail here, Fortuna could suck up some major sales tax revenues and start cleaning house. This place could use a few beautification projects.; March 20, 2007 7:39 PM
Anonymous said...: Using your same reasoning, will wanting or demanding a regional shopping make it successful? No, of course it won't. I repeat, we need 50% of the County's retail sales to support a large regional shopping center. While I believe that our Mayor and Mr. Whitchurh are reasonably intelligent people, that does not make them experts in market analysis, which is why the City hired an expert. I do not consider it intelligent behavior to then ignore your expert's information simply because you want to do something contrary to what his information indicates should be done.

If people had good jobs and more money to spend, we would end up with more places to spend it because high qualtiy retailers would want to be here, as opposed to us having to pay for them to be here. Please remember that Mr. Katz is demanding that you, the taxpayer, subsidize his development through sharing our tax increment with him, and/or providing him with infrastructure. The City is looking into these possibilities, starting with exploring the possibility of putting the property into a redevelopment area. I also wonder why the City has not asked for documentation from Mr. Katz indicating the supposed interest in our community by all these retailers. I suspect Wal-Mart would likely be the only one interested, and if they come here, I would hazard a guess that once K-Mart in Eureka and McKinleyville goes under, they would make the move to one of those locations and leave us with a large, empty box. Why, because they really don't want to be in Fortuna. Ask Mr. Katz.; March 20, 2007 7:47 PM
Bernie said...: I drive to Crescent City several times a month on business. It's funny everyone I talk to there loves Wal-Mart and Home Depot? I know they only have about 8,000 people living in the city limits. But for the most part they all seem happy with what they have. Why is that? Could they be happy they have some shopping in there little town.

I'll even bet their laughing at our problems.; March 20, 2007 7:49 PM
Anonymous said...: "Using your same reasoning, will wanting or demanding a regional shopping make it successful? No, of course it won't. I repeat, we need 50% of the County's retail sales to support a large regional shopping center."

" ... which is why the City hired an expert."

Well, at the risk of getting into a circular argument, once again, you are selectively choosing which expert that you are listening to as, I confess, am I.

Again, you discount the market expert that Katz brought in, and once again, as F.Katz is risking his dollars, I think he is probably spending substantial money on market analysis, etc.; March 20, 2007 8:01 PM
Anonymous said...: Bernie, Crescent City is a white trash dump! Fortuna is a much better community than that. That's not PC, but it is the truth.
Show some pride and intelligence Fortuna City council. Bringing in a Wal-Mart is not economic development, in fact as it has been pointed out it is actually going to do more harm than good!

Another point that has not been discussed here is the accelerated timeline that this general Plan update is on. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that PALCO and Katz are dictating the timeline, not the City. PALCO doesn't give a rats what goes there as long as they liquidate it. They are so desperate to sell it off, take a look at the Scotia desperation with Rio Dell.

Of course Katz's site analysts are going to green light a Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart counts on destroying the competition. Fortuna is willing to destroy what businesses it has left. Is the chamber of commerce stupid? Or are they just afraid of not standing-up for themselves? Wal-Mart is going to be only winner here. I know someone will blog about the community being the winners. Think the water bills are bad? Wait until we end-up paying for this economic pipe dream!; March 20, 2007 8:38 PM
Anonymous said...: Instead of going on and on about Walmart can someone please throw out some ideas of what type of retail to bring in?

We need something to generate sales tax.

It would need to sell clothing.

Kohl's?; March 20, 2007 8:44 PM
Anonymous said...: "Bernie, Crescent City is a white trash dump! Fortuna is a much better community than that. That's not PC, but it is the truth.

Please, oh please spare me your elitist snobbery. No, it's not pc, I agree, what you say about our fine neighbors to the north, but it's also not true.

"White Trash"

- WOW, I think I'll just let that quote hang out there by itself, as it speaks for itself - utterly vile and disgusting, coming from someone who obviously looks down their nose at the common hardworking man and woman.

"Show some pride and intelligence Fortuna City council.!"

Once again, our City Council is listening to their constituency, who overwhelmingly WANT this to happen - seems pretty intelligent to me.
BTW, if the land is zoned appropriately, there is NOTHING you can do about it.

"Bringing in a Wal-Mart is not economic development, in fact as it has been pointed out it is actually going to do more harm than good!"

Actually, it IS economic development, its just not what YOU want. As far as doing more harm than good, that's only the opinion of a few.

"Another point that has not been discussed here is the accelerated timeline that this general Plan update is on. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that PALCO and Katz are dictating the timeline, not the City. "

That's because there IS NO accelerated timeline. The Genereal Plan update is actually a little behind schedule.

"Of course Katz's site analysts are going to green light a Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart counts on destroying the competition."

As has been discussed, over and over and over and over and(well, you get the picture) there is NO competition to speak of in Fortuna to "Destroy".

"Is the chamber of commerce stupid? Or are they just afraid of not standing-up for themselves?"

So, do you continually just lable those you dont agree with?? Come on down from your ivory tower and mingle with the unwashed masses of Fortuna.

If you knew the members of the Fortuna Chamber of Commerce, you'd know that they are a diverse group of men and women who are more than willing to stand up for themselves. If you've ever attended the community meetings or city council meetings, you'd know this.

"Wait until we end-up paying for this economic pipe dream! "

Wow, more from the anti manual. Tell me, how exactly are we going to "pay" for this? No, we will reap more sales tax revenues by not spending our sales tax dollars in Eureka. (good, not bad).

Worst case, we have an empty big box in 25 years, and a ghost town on main street, replacing the empty mill site, and, oh, yes, the ghost town on main street.; March 20, 2007 9:01 PM
Anonymous said...: There you go again, Council member, the campaign, cut and paste my blog and respond to it with jibberish, no facts, no substance. My Grandfather, mother and father, and sister all work(ed) for the timber industry. I'm mearly pointing out that Crescent is full of meth-heads and family members of incarcerated felons. Fortuna is a much better community. We'd have the same problems if we had a State Prison that close. Don't get any ideas.

Give me a break, hard woking my a.. Fortunan's (Scotia/Rio Dell) are the hardest working residents in this County. Let Katz build his shopping center with his own money. No tax gap funding/sharing. No redevelopment money. If it is such a great investment then he can build it himself! Not with our HARD earned tax dollars. The General plan is being accelerated for PALCO and KATZ.; March 20, 2007 9:27 PM
Anonymous said...: Yes, and fortuna has NOOOOOO meth heads.

Lost the argument right there, pardner.

"gibbersh?"

Everything I have responded to has been backed up and substantiated. Just because you dont like it, doesnt make you wrong, merely stupid, as you like to label those who you dont agree with.

You simply can't handle it, because I have responded to words youve used, without taking them out of context and given you a verbal ass kicking.; March 20, 2007 9:37 PM
Anonymous said...: "The General plan is being accelerated for PALCO and KATZ"

uhhh, no it is NOT.

Please substantiate. Gee, last time I checked were nearing the end of a TWO to THREE YEAR process.

"Accelerated"...hardly; March 20, 2007 9:39 PM
Erin said...: 8:01pm Anonymous blogger who continually copies and pastes competent bloggers comments and writes, uninformed dribble, here's one for you:

"Again, you discount the market expert that Katz brought in, and once again, as F.Katz is risking his dollars, I think he is probably spending substantial money on market analysis, etc."

Expert?! That was clearly laid to rest by Dr. Hackett's response (consultant hired by the city) which the city is keeping very quiet. You should pick up a copy at city hall. Most of your uninformed, supposed facts would be laid to rest as poorly formed opinions. If Katz's so-called experts data and analysis was so rigorous and legitimate don't you think the city would not have to hide Dr. Hackett's response? The so-called data and analysis would have stood up to Dr. Hackett's scrutiny.

Also, like another blogger said, Katz is not planning on building this project with all his own money, he wants the tax-payers to foot a large part of the bill.

The biggest bullies are the "Big-Box or Bust" bloggers, taking pot-shots at real facts, calling people "elitists," just because they are concerned about how the city is rushing forward on the General Plan Update and ignoring their own consultants and moving head-strongly in the direction of the most fiscally reckless alternative (looking at all credible data presented).

By the way, have you seen the Bayshore Mall lately? I was there this last weekend. There were 12 vacancies, Beauty Connection will make 13 when they leave to relocate next to Walgreens on Broadway soon, and there were 3 other spots that use to be stores but, have since become blank walls or offices not connected to the inside of the mall. I just heard today that the movie theater and Mervyns are leaving soon. Hmmm....seems there is a glut of retail in Eureka. The Bayshore Mall is headed for a gray-field (the equivalent to a vacant industrial brown-field). Take a look at Old Town Eureka, it is thriving!

My parents were out from Iowa (not the most progressive area of the country) and my mother said they are not even building traditional Mall's anymore. They are building Mixed Use villiage centers instead. Something to think about...; March 20, 2007 10:11 PM
Anonymous said...: I take a shot at this, as I agree Fortuna is rushing. The timeline has been accelerated by holding joint sessions of the Planning Commission and City Council. Planning Commissions and City Councils take public input separately in communities that care about the quality of their general plan. Humboldt County is doing just that. Fortuna's Joint sessions didn't even permit public input. Especially that lacking presentation by "Map Info." Secondly, a newly elected City Council member told an engineer on the General Update team "that we've have to get the general plan done so as to not slow Fred down." I'd give more details but it could get pretty embarrasing for the City and this council member. Fred is dictating this timeline, not the City.; March 20, 2007 10:36 PM
Anonymous said...: That's not what I had in mind for that A-hole but thanks!; March 20, 2007 10:54 PM
Anonymous said...: I hope we get a super center walmart; March 20, 2007 11:00 PM
Anonymous said...: Erin,
You are relatively new to this area. So maybe, somehow, you are unaware of our "underground" economy. Dr Hackett touched breifly on it in his report. He acknowledges that he could not put numbers on it and include it in his analysis. However, it is real. We all know it is there. We all know it is several million dollars per year. Yes, we aren't in Iowa anymore.
As a college professor, you know that an analysis that does not or cannot use complete and accurate data is completely worthless. Not worth the paper upon which it is printed. Maybe that is why the City is "hiding" and "ignoring" this particular report. Worth thinking about, Don't you agree?; March 20, 2007 11:10 PM
Anonymous said...: Bottom Line is:
The idea that when Wal-Mart enters a small community, that community is devastated, is not some kind of myth. It is not just silly jibberish. It is fact. Real true-life technicolor proof exists all across our Country. Do you think we'd even be having this discussion if it weren't true? Don't stick your heads in a hole and and say dumb things like "It will help all the existing businesses" That is hog-wash.
Fortuna needs retail growth. EVERYBODY who lives here agrees with that. It will happen. It's already happening. We do not need to surrender the farm to get what we need. There are alternatives to Big Box town ruiners. Take your blinders off and really think about all the businesses that could be severly crippled or put out of business by Wal-Mart in our town. These are businesses that have contributed generously to our community and who's owners belong to Community Service clubs, Rodeo Board, Hospital foundation, AutoRama, Coach Little league, the list just goes on & on. You do NOT want theses businesses to be squeezed out of our town by Wal-Mart. I truly believe some of you don't realize how big & powerful Wal-Mart is.
Think about it. One small example: Hummel Tire. Hal Hummel has been a City Council Member, Chamber of Commerce member, Rodeo Board Member, Rotary Club Member, the list goes on & On...this is "his" town, Hal and his family deserve the right to keep their business flourishing for another 30 years in Fortuna. Do you think Wal-Mart is gonna care that we really don't need another tire center in this town? Hell no! They are gonna build the biggest shiniest, lowest cost tire place they can, and to hell with anyone who thinks they can compete. You might say "well, that's free enterprise. Free? Do you think the Hummels recieved any tax dollars to start up their business. Do you really think the city has helped to subsidize their operation?
There are ALOT more business than you all think that will be effected. I think it is embarrasing for our town that so many of you forget and/or don't do something to protect the businesses that have contributed for years to your kids' school carnivals, 8th grade trips, sober graduation, sports teams, local hospital, community events, etc.,etc. Again, let's work to increase our retail offerings, but put limits on square footage and keep out the big boxes. There are alternatives to big box. I urge all of you to research the abundant available information about other towns our size who fell victim, and the aftermath of their post big box invasion.; March 21, 2007 7:37 AM
Erin said...: I know about the underground economy. There is an underground economy all over the state. It does not change the fact that MapInfo listed no sources, no methodology, and had numbers for projected Humboldt County Retail Sales for 2006 that were more than double those of Humboldt County from 2004 (this includes spending derived from the underground economy as well as visitors) according to the CA Board of Equalization. Dr. Hackett's response is 2.5 pages long, written in plain English, he lists his autoritative sources, and he tries, as any objective economist would, to reconcile the difference between his numbers and MapInfo's. He cannot. No one can responsibly talk about the underground economy because there are no records available. He does say, "While some additional leakage may occur if the underground economy contributes more unrecorded personal income in Humboldt County than in the state overall, there isn't data available to assess that argument." This is after he concludes that there is no data to support substantial sales tax leakage for Fortuna or Humboldt County which he did using authoritative sources. Read it yourself!; March 21, 2007 7:45 AM
Anonymous said...: I hope the City of Fortuna uses the MAP INFO economic data in the EIR, it will be a cakewalk to deem the EIR legally inadequate!; March 21, 2007 8:27 AM
Anonymous said...: I'm building a house and I'm sick of driving to Cresent City to go to Home Depot. Please work to get a Home Depot of something similar in Fortuna. That would be great!!; March 21, 2007 9:22 AM
Erin said...: I was rushing this morning and the sales tax leakage I referred to in my last post was NET sales tax leakage.

I do have to say that looking at the business distribution in town that, Fortuna Blvd. businesses such as Safeway, Rite Aid, Rays, Ace Hardware, and Walgreens are more at risk from a Walmart center of some kind then those in the downtown. We could see a lot of greyfields pop up on Fortuna Blvd. I partially agree with a blogger who stated that the downtown is not as retail oriented anymore. It has become more specialized (antique, specialty shops, and offices) and continues to reinvent itself. I would not call it a ghost town. I live downtown and am a patron of these businesses because I like the convience and service. Plus I love antiques. I think with a little signage about the antique shops etc, on 101 and the creation of an official historic district could help bring more tourists in. Tourists like antiqueing etc.; March 21, 2007 10:01 AM
Anonymous said...: Erin,
Could you please give us some of your ideas for what you would like to see on the Palco property?; March 21, 2007 10:32 AM
Erin said...: Taking in all the information presented at the workshops by consultants and the public comments from the last joint workshop, as well as reviewing a recent economic study of the North Coast Economies, Targets of Opportunity by John Melville (sp), I see a mixed use development that contains light industrial, some retail (possibly a large format retailer but size of the store needs to be of appropriate scale to keep the business climate competitive, we want more choices not less, definitely under 100,000 square feet) and a real visitor center/park at the South end in the area that is not conducive to development because of a wetland.

I really need more information about the Strong's Creek Plaza development, what is going in, square footage of the stores, etc. to speak to the appropriate size of a large format retailer on the PALCO Mill Site. Possibly some office space and housing at the Mill Site as well. I am not sure of the amount of new housing needed. I definitely do not see a traditional, suburban housing tract on the property.

I do not see the community center/pool as being on the PALCO site or on the Riverwalk. I think to alleviate traffic issues it should be on Fortuna Blvd.

I am very concerned about all undeveloped industrial land being outside the city limits and needing to be annexed. Annexation is expensive and takes time. There is a real need for light industrial land. We have a new industrial complex just outside a new ritzy housing development off Rohnerville Rd and another now at the entrance to the city on Main Street (not my preferred locations). Plus the Targets of Opportunity Report points to light industrial as one sector of the economy that has shown growth and potential. We need to bring more quality jobs to Fortuna. If more people work in Fortuna, more people will shop in Fortuna. I think we need to look at encouraging infill and the use of existing city infastructure to meet all our land use needs before looking at annexation.

Mixed Use villiages use existing infastructures very efficiently and are the development of the future. These types of developments are being proposed and built to rebuild the hurricane ravaged communities of the Gulf Coast. Those communities really have economic and infastructure issues to overcome! Supposedly a true mixed use of some kind is touted as the most fiscally responsible designation for the PALCO Mill property but the city won't take the time to seriously look into this alternative. I see that as a fiscally irresponsible move by the city.

There is only one reason to not take the time to look into the most realistic and fiscally responsible designation...they went into this process with a predetermined outcome in mind and this general plan update is not for the community as a whole but for Fred Katz. CA state law only requires the housing element to be updated every five years. The old general plan has language/policies throughout the document to discourage new retail development outside of the downtown and Fortuna Blvd areas. There was no possible way for them to just amend one part of the General Plan to allow Katz to move forward. They needed to rewrite a lot of the policies. I rest my case.; March 21, 2007 12:25 PM
Anonymous said...: May it rest in peace, along with all of your other conspiracy theories.; March 21, 2007 12:31 PM
Anonymous said...: "8:01pm Anonymous blogger who continually copies and pastes competent bloggers comments and writes, uninformed dribble, here's one for you"

And here's one for you to chew on Erin, my friend: Do you really consider the "white trash" & "methhead" comments that I was responding to to be coming from "competent" posters? And once again, let me re-post what I said at 8:01, as it is hardly dribble:

"Well, at the risk of getting into a circular argument, once again, you are selectively choosing which expert that you are listening to as, I confess, am I."

Uniformed?? Hardly. In fact it acknowledges something you are evidently unwilling to do - that we are all going to put more weight towards which ever "expert" supports our side.

"Again, you discount the market expert that Katz brought in, and once again, as F.Katz is risking his dollars, I think he is probably spending substantial money on market analysis, etc."

Once again, Katz isnt playing with monopoly money, he's risking his capital. I hardly think his experts are incompetent, simply because YOU dont agree with them.

Back to class for you now. ta ta; March 21, 2007 12:37 PM
Anonymous said...: Nice job, Erin. Your views reflect those of the majority of people I have spoken with, people who care about the community overall as opposed to people who are willing to sell the soul of the City for the opportunity to buy goods a little cheaper (although this opportunity is a fallacy since the project Katz proposes is not sustainable) without having to drive to Eureka. It is unfortunate that

And to the 12:31 blogger, Erin has presented no conspiracy theories. The City's written and verbal record makes the City's intent to facilitate Katz's development crystal clear for anybody who cares to take a look.; March 21, 2007 12:46 PM
Robert Wall said...: Keep it respectful "Ta Ta back to class? I have chosen not to participate in this. But taking pot shots at my My wife is acceptable. If you disagree with my wife then do so with the courage at least put you name to it.; March 21, 2007 12:56 PM
Robert Wall said...: I am PISSED NOT ACCEPTABLE; March 21, 2007 1:00 PM
Anonymous said...: Well gee, tough. Welcome to the world of blogs. If you cant take the heat, stay off of them.

Like it or not, this is the way of the blogosphere.

Besides, your wife accused me of "dribble" which I only do when I am sleeping. Boo Hoo, now MY feelings are hurt.; March 21, 2007 1:10 PM
Anonymous said...: Oh, and btw, "ta ta, back to class" is hardly a "potshot", LOL.
But, if you are, in your words, "PISSED", may I suggest a soothing cup of herbal tea?; March 21, 2007 1:12 PM
Anonymous said...: Hollow argument:
As Mr. Katz represents a development Company, his, or otherwise, he certainly is not risking any of his own personal income. Dollars spent for studies and such all all normal expendatures for that type of business.; March 21, 2007 1:14 PM
Anonymous said...: Yes, but he is not going to risk a development if he does not think it will be successful. That was my point. He's not going to throw good money after bad if it doesnt pencil out.; March 21, 2007 1:29 PM
Bernie said...: I know there are two sides to Wal-Mart. But I found a great site that let's employees of Wal-Mart tell there story.
http://www.walmartfacts.com/lifeatwalmart/

Here's just one story.

"I still can not believe everything that the company has allowed me to achieve"
Ganese M., Human Resources, Raymond, NH

I started with Wal-Mart in Marcy, NY in July 1994. I am approaching my 13th year with the company and as I look back and reflect I still can not believe everything that the company has allowed me to achieve. I started as an hourly associate in the transportation office. After 18 months, I was promoted into my first management position because someone believed in my abilities. I have been a Dispatcher, Operations Manager, General Transportation Manager, HR manager, Market HR Manager and now a Driver Recruiter. I achieved all of this because of working hard, but more importantly because I had a lot of great people who trusted and believed in me. There is no better feeling than achieving your goals when you have the support and encouragement of your fellow associates. The opportunity that has been available to me has been outstanding and I am very proud of this company. As a recruiter, I am out there every day talking about what a great company I work for. I have come to the realization that this job is the best one yet because I get to tell the outside public how wonderful "My Wal-Mart" is!

Posted by Wal-Mart Facts on March 19, 2007"

Wal-Mart can't be all that bad.; March 21, 2007 1:48 PM
Erin said...: I must be on to something since so many anonymous bloggers only have insults to throw my way. Thanks honey for the defense. Also, thanks to the blogger who also pointed out that I am not using scare tactics. I'm sorry if the real facts are scary to some.

Mr. or Ms. Copy-Paster I did not say that all the posters you were responding to were competent. You have been pasting and copying to respond to multiple posters not just to the one that referred to people in Crescent City as meth-heads etc. Of course, I do not agree with that comment.

About the experts, we will see whose economic data and analysis is used for the EIR document. I guarantee that it will not be Katz's MapInfo. If they do use MapInfo's garbage I guarantee the state will send the EIR back.

I am not handpicking my "expert" to fit my position because I did not go into this process with a position to defend. I have been and continue to be open to reasonable opportunities. I would have accepted MapInfo's data and analysis if it had any substance. I found problems with it myself. Things any person would have seen if they looked at it. See my earlier post that was also an editorial in the Eureka Reporter.

I have no position to defend. I just want the city to make an informed, responsible decision based on legitimate, data and analysis. What is so wrong about asking the city to consider the most viable option? It seems any reasonable person would want the city to do the same thing.

Ta, Ta, I'm off to class :); March 21, 2007 2:24 PM
Anonymous said...: Erin,
Having said you are for some sort of retail, any ideas?

We need to do some brainstorming on this blog.

I guess I am confused. I thought the City Council was behind the mixed use zoning. I was at the meetings and that's what I heard. If Katz can still do a mega project then what zoning would keep him from doing that?

It sounds like the only way to keep Katz out would be to not allow any retail on the Palco site and that would be very harmful to Fortuna.; March 21, 2007 2:29 PM

«Oldest ‹Older 1 – 200 of 477 Newer› Newest»

Fortuna Forum

Thursday, December 01, 2005

General Plan Update

477 comments:

Links